Raspy vs. Perdida, do I stand a chance?

[Buhallin]

Pardon the melodramatic title, but I'm at my wits end with this.

We started with starter boxes, as would seem appropriate. After about five games I'd managed two draws by the skin of my teeth, and gotten completely slaughtered on the others. I'd decided that the starters just didn't match up, but expanding to 35ss would help toughen up Rasputina.

I added an Essence of Power and a Sabretooth Cerberus, my buddy added a Governor's Proxy and a Witchling Stalker. I managed to actually do some damage, forcing Papa Loco to blow himself up and catching Santiago with a good Curse or two. But an Obey'd Cerberus shredded Raspy, and even with Perdita out in the open and completely vulnerable to a Leap from cover, I managed to hit exactly zero times in three strikes, and the cat was dead from unwounded one activation later. Raspy followed shortly after.

After much discussion, we decided that maybe the Gamins were too expensive for what they accomplished, and three was overkill. Pulled one and added in Myranda - considered Joss, but don't have him yet and 5 soulstones already felt too light for Raspy. This one went even worse. I managed to keep the multi-Obey at the Cerberus from eating me, but burned most cards in the process. On the other side Perdita slipped around the pillars, got within the 10" to take two shots and a Quick Draw, and Raspy's dead. At this point I surrendered.

Is this just an unwinnable matchup? I cannot for the life of me find a way through the insanity that is the Ortegas. Speed, range, firepower, and stupidly high Df are all bad enough before you throw in craziness like not being able to leave any of my heavy hitters in charge range of any of my models.

Someone, please help. I've utterly failed to find any way to even slow them down, much less win a game, and it's getting harder and harder to not just throw up my hands, declare them stupidly broken, and offer to buy my friend a new starter if he'll just stop playing the Ortegas.

[Exaar]

I also am interested in responses to this.

I (and my pals) are new to the game. We're trying to build interest in the local area to get a decent group together. So far there's three of us, and I chose my Master first: I chose Tina, mostly because I really like her model, but I have the model so now I'm dedicated. I enjoy her style of play, so I don't think I made a bad choice, but...

My two friends chose Perdita and Sonnia Criid. We played for the first time yesterday and they both crushed me.

Unless I can figure out some good anti-guild tactics for Tina, I'm going to be in for repetitive beatings. >_<

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Ice Pillars block LoS.

White Out gives Soft Cover.

Perdita casting Obey is difficult for her and won't always happen.

How much terrain are you using? Stick 'em to it.

[Poko]

Exaar...Ouch, not sure about perdy, but Sonia is definetely the worst match-up for Raspy. I suggest the cerberus or serpent to take her out fastm then you have free reign. Something fast to hit her so her Advanced counterspell is no longer an issue. For perdy, advance under the Pillars, and again, I suggest taking the cerberus to take out some of the Family(Nino, as hes terribly dangerous againt Raspy with 16" gun).

[Chucklemonkey]

Now firstly can I just say that I am not a Rasputina player so I would hope some more experienced posters will offer some assistance. In saying that I do love the model so had paid some attention to her rules and potential choices.

Do you have the December Acolyte and Molemen? Both of these seem very difficult to target with ranged shots giving you an opportunity to maneuver your faction befor moving in for the kill. Also, the Acolyte's Harpoon Fate trigger and icy fate spell (although difficult to activate) would cause headache's for defending.

Edited April 12, 2010 by Chucklemonkey

[Monkeyclops]

...I managed to keep the multi-Obey at the Cerberus from eating me...

Obey can only be cast once per activation, this makes it sound like its being cast multiple times on the Cerebus in 1 turn...

Also, as WEiRD suggested, use Ice Pillars and WhiteOut. The Ortegas are mainly ranged, WhiteOut will be nasty against them as all their attack flips get a , which prevents them from cheating attack flips.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

I managed to keep the multi-Obey at the Cerberus from eating me, but burned most cards in the process.

I'm guessing the Multi-Obey was from Perdita and the Enslaved Nephilim?

If so, they could only cast Obey once a piece.

[Buhallin]

The multi-Obey was over several turns. But he managed to get it off 3 times in the space of two games. Coming from the Nephilim it's not all that hard to get off (10+ any suit, I think). And even if it doesn't happen very often, it only takes once - a self-charge from the Cerberus or Ice Golem is very, very bad for Rasputina because of her low defense.

We had plenty of terrain, but it was mostly buildings rather than area terrain.

I think my big problems were Perdita, Nino, and Papa.

Nino: Cover doesn't help, which makes White Out useless and Pillars only slightly less so. Unless I dedicate the Cerberus to striking past the lines to get him, nothing I've got has enough speed to deal with him. I did freeze him in terrain once, which was only slightly useful since I locked him into a position where he could see me but I couldn't see him.

Perdita: I seriously just can't find a weakness in her. Her Df 8 means I'm typically at -2 or -3 to hit her, and she has soulstones available. Evasive makes blasts barely useful, and that's assuming he's kind enough to put her close enough to a target to catch her in blasts. On the flip side her Cb is anywhere from +1 to +4 against my Df, and the Ice Golem is the only thing I've got that take take more than 2, MAYBE 3, hits before dying. Even if I do manage cover via White Out, she's at a base +4 shooting at Raspy. Pretty solid chances of a hit there even with the . And that's assuming she doesn't just Bullet Bend.

Papa: Mostly a matter of what how badly he disrupts any plan I might have. His explosions when he gets close are just so brutal I have to deal with him early, which usually means I can't do anything to control Perdita. Last game I did managed to send him packing with a Roar, but having to dedicate my only fast model to dealing with him is a pain and if I happen to miss, it's going to be very painful.

Francisco and Santiago are just backup. If I try and stay in cover, Perdita and Nino shoot me to pieces anyway and I probably lose the strategy. If I move out, they're so much faster than me I get shredded.

I haven't got (or tried) a December Acolyte yet. I'll take a look at what he might add to the mix. We've considered Molemen, but I think they're probably too slow to be effective.

Edited April 12, 2010 by Buhallin

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Ice Pillars are Ht 5... Perdita's only Ht 2. How is she seeing through them?

[Ropetus]

I agree that Perdita is a very nasty matchup for Rasputina, especially if they get Assassinate. Perdita is extremely fast and can engage Rasputina very quickly. I've played one game with Perdita against Tina and it was a massacre.

As said, use terrain and Ice Pillars as much as possible to avoid shots. This at least wastes some of their actions moving to position or getting rid of the pillars. Use White Out and December's Touch (the Essence is a good choice for casting this) to further reduce the damage from their few shots.

Also, try going for the offensive with your spells, the Ortegas are very fragile against direct damage (with the exception of Santiago) and a couple of December's Curses should quickly reduce their numbers. Use Ice Mirror as much as possible to prevent counter shots (only offer them a single target at a time). Try to get rid of Francisco quickly: he is the easiest to kill and their only melee threat. After he is gone, engageing Santiago and Nino in melee should shut down most of their firepower, leaving you with only Perdita to worry about. If you get a chance to throw the Cerberus on her, do so (but don't forget to December's Touch it frst). Four Cb6 strikes should burn her through most of her control hand and/or soulstones which means less of those to be used to attack Rasputina.

Molemen should be highly effective against Guild crews and they make a nice combination with Rasputina's abilities. They can absorb great amounts of damage with their Armor which should buy you some time to use December's Curse. Adding Myranda to heal the Moles should make them last even longer.

-Ropetus

[TheViking]

Perdita is a rough match for Raspy in general. There are 2 Perdita players at my LGS and she is a tough nut to crack. Her whole gang is really good and all having Companion(family) comes in handy when they really need to kill your models. As for dealing with her you need durable models or fast models to get there. The constructs like gamins with statue allows :-fate on damage flips and with armor it helps them to survive a little longer. Or you need fast models to get there to kill there stuff like Cerebus.

Also make sure you use Ice Pillars to your advantage, either forcing them to kill the pillars, or play around them. And if they are killing pillars they aren't killing your models.

Icy mirrors is really great for dealing with them. 16'' threat is great because it allows you out range most models in her crew besides Nino. And with overpower and casting expert you are able to put out some serious hurt.

Most this stuff has been posted before but thats my .02$

Edited April 12, 2010 by TheViking

[Buhallin]

Ice Pillars are Ht 5... Perdita's only Ht 2. How is she seeing through them?

Not through them, but around them isn't hard since she only needs a sliver to get LOS and can ignore the cover after that. Failing that, my opponent has been quite successful at taking out a pillar using other models, thus opening a hole for Perdita. Yes, most of the Ortegas need a severe flip to crack one but if they get it you're done, and they can easily take 2 or more shots. It sounds great in theory, but given the consequences once it goes away it hasn't played out well for me in practice.

All it really takes is one hit - Perdita's flip only has to beat Raspy by 2 to get a cheatable, even flip. It only takes two shots - one with severe, one with moderate - and Rasputina's dead.

That's the problem - there's zero tolerance. One opening with Perdita in 16" and Rasputina is almost certainly dead or close to it. On the flip side, Perdita's incredible Df means scoring hits on her is difficult at best. Ice Mirror sounds great, but bouncing the spell puts you at -4 to hit her. And, honestly, if you ever get that shot it means your opponent screwed up majorly. Rasputina only moves 3, and a Gamin goes 4. If someone can figure out how to surprise Perdita's 6"+Fast, please let me know.

On paper, the Gamin's Statue sounds good. In practice it doesn't work out so well. The :-fate doesn't help much. Even with Weak damage the Ortegas will put 2 points a hit, more with an extra Ram or a lucky flip even with the minus. With only 5 wounds they simply die long before they can reasonably be used to reflect spells.

The Golem makes much better use of Statue, especially armored up, but using it slows your advance to 3" per turn. There aren't many strategies where that will win you the game.

Not trying to just declare that things won't work, but I've seen them not work. The math on the matchup is bad, and every game I've played has gone exactly as expected for the math. I'm not looking for a guarantee to beat her every time, just something that gives a decent fighting chance.

I do like the look of the December Acolyte... The sneaky deployment holds some promise, especially with the "You can't shoot me" thing. At the rate I'm going though I'm going to have every model in the Arcanist range (and probably the Outcasts too) trying to find a way to deal with her. Not that that's a bad thing

[goblyn13]

The steamborg executioner can give you a decent strike range, he's considerable faster than the Golem, plus his 4/5/6 damage with Paired claws means he gets a nasty hit add in the fact that his decapitae is discard soultstone or cards AND take damage means you can get a nasty hit in his combat of 7 means that Perdita only has a +1 advantage on him, so with her low soulstone total you can force her to burn through quite a few cards. Add in his terrifying ability and the steam cloud and you can keep him in soft cover to shoot him which means they can't cheat on the attack. Arachnid on the Steamborg allows him to ignore terrain effects.

Using White out can help Rasputina on the attack meaning only the paired folks would be a problem.

The Razorspine Rattler can make for an effective deterrant for nino as the rasor spine can use 1 AP to move 4" then follow it up with an immediate 12" charge.

Bring the Wendigo or essence of Power, Wendigo is useful because it can heal itself with a corpse counter or two, while the the magical extension allows the totem to cast december's touch to armor up your army (or rasputina herself) while at the same time saving you a precious cast to create the ice pillars instead. Using the essence of power will give you a shield with like but at 2 Wd he won't survive long but he does take half damage from non-magical weapons (which none of the ortegas have magical weapons as i recall.

The hoarcats can add a bit to your army as they are ht1 and harmless(not a big plus but it can help now and again, although stubborn doesn't help when you're the attacker, but WP 6 on most of them means they have to burn a 6+ to shoot them until they do something. Although when using the pride you really need to bring 3 of them as they gain benefits to devour (chomp on ht 2 at +3Ca) just be sure to keep a couple or :crows in your hand for its triggers and devour.

With the Gamin and golem remember Bite of Winter and always use it, plus the Golem and Gamin are the closest to Mobile Turrets as you can get, the golem is extra nasty as he can cause the models to suffer -2/-4 Wk/Cg or slow (depending on trigger)

Edited April 13, 2010 by goblyn13

[GrottoKnight]

Perdita: I seriously just can't find a weakness in her. Her Df 8 means I'm typically at -2 or -3 to hit her, and she has soulstones available. Evasive makes blasts barely useful, and that's assuming he's kind enough to put her close enough to a target to catch her in blasts. On the flip side her Cb is anywhere from +1 to +4 against my Df, and the Ice Golem is the only thing I've got that take take more than 2, MAYBE 3, hits before dying. Even if I do manage cover via White Out, she's at a base +4 shooting at Raspy. Pretty solid chances of a hit there even with the . And that's assuming she doesn't just Bullet Bend.

At the OP, look at my other posts on Raspy through out time.

At the Viking, "Perdita is a rough match for Raspy in general" incorrect she is a tough match for everyone in general. She is argueably the best master (argueably...lilith and nicodem are up there).

Other than that.....I have played Lordfishane and his crew a ton, I have had the better of him through out time. That is until this past weekedn at a Tourney and he got me and finished 2nd by 1VP. He picked up this game faster than anyone I know and is a good player. That being said there are three ways to engage Perdita and her crew......by melee monsters like Joss, Johan, Cerebus, and Marcus (yes I play 2 master games), by Decembers Curse and Ice Burst Strike, and Ice constructs or Ramos and nids/gamin bursts.

Obviously melee tie ups are great versus the ranged natiness her and the gang present.

Dec. Curse with a high mask and a SS on top and continually tagging.....someone around her that has lots 8+HP can wring her bell. She will soak 4/8 if you do it right. (lets not bring SS protection into this as a goal should be to suck her SS dry anyway). Then when one target is killed and therefore out of Overpower cast it again and lay the templates over her and repeat.

Icy Burst isn't as nasty but late in the turn when cards are low it can do damage indirectly.

(all of the above is indirect which cannot be avoided)

the same idirect damage can be done with ice constructs or ramos and his deal.

Ice mirror should be avoided vs Perdita. Don't forget Quick Draw (name?) is a "0". So you know when it is up, and it shoudln't kill you anyway with SS and Dec Touch available (totem casts).

As was said earlier, you can try defensive Pillars and White out......depends on what your opponent is going for......in my experience versus Perdita you slap her around before she does it to you.

[Buhallin]

White Out: Am I missing something about its particular form of cover? Nino and Perdita ignore (or can ignore) cover, and Santiago is paired, leaving Francisco as the only one who you actually get a against. It seems like a waste of a spell, as it will only actually affect your own models... But enough people have suggested it to make me wonder if I'm missing something about it.

I'm also not convinced that December's Curse is a great option. It's certainly good against the rest of the Family, but even if my opponent is kind enough to leave Perdita in blast range of a hittable target you're only going to get 3 damage a hit thanks to Evasive. Taking her down in a turn like this would require a triple Curse, all hitting Severe damage. That seems an incredible long shot, and if you're in the open Raspy's pretty much dead if it doesn't work.

[Keltheos]

What strategies and schemes are you playing? Is it assassination each time?

[GrottoKnight]

White Out: Am I missing something about its particular form of cover?

That seems an incredible long shot, and if you're in the open Raspy's pretty much dead if it doesn't work.

No, you are not, but LOS and cover are two different things. New rules tweak allows models to be behind white out/steam vent and it blocks LOS.

Thats not that easy.

This is why I am the aggressor with her.

NO WAY. I can usually pull off 2-4 SEVEREs, then cast again, and sometimes again if I stood still or used Ice mirror. Keep 9+of masks in your hand and use a SS on each cast no matter what, this will hit your target (indirect on dita or even straight dita unless they spill a high card and ss too) and nail her too. With such a high cast you have a good shot at 11+ and no problem with Essence around.

I have had Dec. Curse go off on 1 cast through ice mirror with 0 masks in my hand 4 straight times. SS =1/4 shot to get Overpower. I can't tell you how many times I ran out of death to lay down because my opponent wouldn't stand up. (its kinda sad astually, then you realize that was one AP and you have 1-2 more targets to choose.

You do realize that when using templates they touch each other in any way and then one has to simply touch the base edge of the original target right?

Edited April 13, 2010 by GrottoKnight

[Joona]

I agree that Perdita is a very nasty matchup for Rasputina, especially if they get Assassinate. Perdita is extremely fast and can engage Rasputina very quickly. I've played one game with Perdita against Tina and it was a massacre.

Yes, it was such a nice game. Treasure Hunt for Rasputina and Assasinate for Perdita. Because I was using the crew box and an Essence my speed wasn't that amazing. My brave Gamins were running for the Treasure Token like no tomorrow but still the Ortegas got there at the same time. We had a piece of ruins on the middle of the board where the treasure was waiting. Perdita and Francisco were there along my Gamin. Papa and Ninõ were after the Golem and Santiago was hanging around to get a shot at Rasputina. I might have been able to get the Token at least out of the ruins had I not used my (0) to cast Biting Chill instead of locking the buggers in the ruins. In addition to that I managed to pull the Black Joker on my Ice Pillars cast with the Essence The Gamins were quite dead after that.

Biggest problems in my opinion (in case you have to kill them):

1) Perdita is quite hard to kill with Raspy. You can Curse her head on with a soulstone or a big card with a bit of luck. The rest of them might actually die if you try to kill them and your opponent isn't lucking with his cards.

2) If you're close enough to catch her with a Curse, you're so close that she and her happy group of friends will shoot you to death on their next activation. Companion works wonders to get rid of any Ice Pillars there might be between you and them.

3) You can try to catch Perdita with blasts, but those only do 1 or 2 Dg to her, she has Evasive 2. The rest of her crew is a lot easier to kill though.

4) White out helps against Papa and Francisco. But they'll kill you in melee instead.

5) Tying in melee only works against Santiago and Ninõ. Ninõ will be sticking to the forests somewhere far away. You might catch him with a beast though.

6) You'll be pulling Black Jokers on the Ice Pillars any way

It might work better with a few beasts and an armored up Joss or Borg.

[Poko]

No, you are not, but LOS and cover are two different things. New rules tweak allows models to be behind white out/steam vent and it blocks LOS.

Okay, can you please elaborate? Because unless I'm missing something the whiteout just gives models cover as it's no longer "blocking".

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Okay, can you please elaborate? Because unless I'm missing something the whiteout just gives models cover as it's no longer "blocking".

From the errata:

Terrain Blocking LoS

A model’s LoS is blocked to a target if it cannot draw a line to the target’s base through terrain or game effects or its Height and the Height of the target is equal to or less than that of the terrain.

See here for the other discussion on this.

The White Out cloud nor the Steamborg's Cloud are "terrain" but they act as terrain as they block LoS for models on either side of the effects.

[Poko]

Now THAT changes things a good deal. Somehow I missed the link between the rewrite and the spell completely :oops:

[Buhallin]

Lots of various answers...

I'll have to look at White Out with a new appreciation for the blocking potential. Does having it up block incoming LOS to Rasputina (no book handy so not sure how much it gives vs. how much you need to block)? If it does it'll be a big help. If not, I'm not sure so much - blocking LOS to anything else would require her to be out front, which doesn't seem the best bet given the large potential for ignoring cover with the Ortegas.

Grotto - maybe you're just luckier than I am, but I've never seen more than a single Overpower trigger go off at a time, even with cheating. Getting 4 at a time, with all Severe damage? Possible, but not something I think is reliable.

We are playing the blast markers right, but that's still only 100mm worth of potential distance, or about 4". That doesn't seem be that hard for Perdita to stay out of.

On the strategies: The two recent games were paired Reconnoiter, and my Treasure Hunt vs. his Reconnoiter. For schemes I was going with Holdout, which seems good with Rasputina's board control, and Bodyguard, since Rasputina is such a central part of the crew I figure her going down means I've lost anyway.

Reconnoiter is problematic because of the individual weakness of the Gamins, and the need to keep them near Rasputina. On the Treasure Hunt I walled it off and used to Golem to get to it, figuring he'd survive well and I needed the Cerberus for fast flanking to stop his Reconnoiter. Both parts worked, but Perdita made it around the edge of the pillars and Raspy was dead 30 seconds later.

I'm definitely going to look at the Acolyte, and what I can do with White Out. I'll report back after this weekend's games.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Lots of various answers...

I'll have to look at White Out with a new appreciation for the blocking potential. Does having it up block incoming LOS to Rasputina (no book handy so not sure how much it gives vs. how much you need to block)? If it does it'll be a big help. If not, I'm not sure so much - blocking LOS to anything else would require her to be out front, which doesn't seem the best bet given the large potential for ignoring cover with the Ortegas.

Try using the totem for casting white out if necessary.

[Ropetus]

Also, you can use Ice Mirror to center the Aura on another model. Having a Gamin in front of the others and casting White Out on it would limit incoming fire a lot.

-Ropetus

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

And slightly more off of the Golem (40mm base) or if you've given the Sabertooth Frozen Heart (50mm base).