Balance?

[Solarhaphaeriom]

Hi all,

I've just discovered the Malifaux system, and it seems nice. Was looking for a small model-count skirmish system with lots of character, and Malifaux seems to be exactly that, with the Wyrd minis I've liked for a while.

I have a question though, and please be overly critical rather than optimistic here, how is the balance in the game. As in, how many models are subpar in most situations, and are there any casters that are just plain better.

From what I've read it doesn't seem too bad, but I haven't see any threads addressing it directly. FYI, the other game I play is Warmachine/Hordes, which had great balance for a while, then recently not so much, and now with Mk.II we'll see...

[nilus]

Balance is really highly subjective.

In some areas one caster or faction dominates, in other areas its the exact opposite.

Personally I feel Malifaux is pretty balanced overall but some Masters are much more straightforward then others. There is a definite learning curve with some of them.

[ForceVoid]

Not to mention, different strategems favor different Masters and Crew. Pandora, for instance, is not so great at Reconoiter (get a model in each of the four quarters).

[ork56]

^^^

why do you think that?

[nightgaunt98c]

And some crews will have trouble againts a certain master, while most have no trouble at all. I guess the point is that it's very situastional. Overall I'd say it has good balance.

[Solarhaphaeriom]

When you say that some crews have a rough time against certain masters, how bad are we talking? 60/40 odds or near-certain doom?

Moreover, how much would changing a single model in the crew affect this? It's my (perhaps mistaken) impression that most of the masters lend themselves well to a specific crew (represented in the box sets), so if you play say Pandora, are you just going to get screwed every time you fight Perdita (completely random example based on nothing)?

[paperbag4]

A lot of the perceived disparity between masters and crews can be reduced (although perhaps not eliminated) by changing what models you take to support the master.

The ability to build your list after setting up the board and deciding on your strategy makes balance more a question of what you need to accomplish than who you need to accomplish it against.

For example, I play both Rasputina and So'Mer Teeth. Unless I'm playing in a tournament or league where I have to stick to one list or one faction, I'll generally avoid playing Rasputina for Reconnoiter and leave Mr. Jones at home when Assassination is the rule of the day. I find that balanced crews led by either model work equally well for the other missions, however.

This ability to decide who to use after knowing the task lends balance to the game as a whole, but might make it seem that since Rasputina is better at Assassination, she is unbalanced. However, her weakness at other strategies rounds her back out to what I feel is the normal power level.

[Angus Khan]

Every master can win against every other master... Some masters do have somewhat of a learning curve so they may seem unbalanced at first glance, but once you get used to playing them any master can be just as competitive as the next.

[Justin]

The higher end of the scale is fairly balanced, but some masters are notably weaker than the standard.

There are also some specific match ups/strategies that certain masters have great difficult with, but those are rather limited. (although a few are fairly bad) And every game has a rock, paper scissors thing going on most of the time, so it's nothing unique to Malifaux.

As has been mentioned, you can simply swap out your master, which is a good point. You can. But I don't think not using a master really makes that master any better.

[Raintar]

The balance is actually very good, better then most games that I have played. However, with that being said it depend on who you are playing with, if you are playing with people that are dedicated gamers, there are some exploits that people can do with certain lists. If you do not, then the metagame will probably be dominated by a few masters who has been proven effective and will most likely be tactically mimiced by the group.

There are lists that are better then others but overall the game is very exceptionally balanced.

Edited February 5, 2010 by Raintar

[Wombats]

There are so many variables in the game:

- Masters

- What Crew you take with them

- Strategies

- Schemes

- Activation Order <--Big, big one there

- What hands you are dealt

- Your's and your opponent's knowledge of your crews

Balance is something I'm usually interested in.

Its pretty much impossible to put your finger on with Malifaux.

I've been playing several months and even games against the same crews are new and interesting, still.

And my playing group often dismantle a ruleset and suck the fun out of it with min/maxing before we relax and start playing fun builds.

The main part is to have a variety of Master/Crews to adapt your crew to your Strategy/Schemes and opposing player's crew.

Its hard to min/max if you don't know what is coming...

[Justin]

There are so many variables in the game:

- Masters

- What Crew you take with them

- Strategies

- Schemes

- Activation Order <--Big, big one there

- What hands you are dealt

- Your's and your opponent's knowledge of your crews

Balance is something I'm usually interested in.

Its pretty much impossible to put your finger on with Malifaux.

I've been playing several months and even games against the same crews are new and interesting, still.

And my playing group often dismantle a ruleset and suck the fun out of it with min/maxing before we relax and start playing fun builds.

The main part is to have a variety of Master/Crews to adapt your crew to your Strategy/Schemes and opposing player's crew.

Its hard to min/max if you don't know what is coming...

This is a good point. Malifaux has a lot more variables than other games, so the balance can change every game between the same two masters. It's pretty neat, actually.

So, ditto what he said.

[Joona]

Probably the biggest factor for game balance is your own skill at playing. Know your own team (note to self: read the errata a couple of times more, along the rulebook), know your enemy. The possibility to choose your crew after you know what you are supposed to be doing is a big factor too. During the game the biggest mistakes you can do are probably with the activation order. Activate a model too early and it might block your moves and LoS for the rest of your models or end up killed by the enemy. Generally speaking, as long as you know what you are doing the game should be quite balanced. You won't necessarily do great in every scenario if you only have one crew set without extra models, but even with that some strategies are certainly possible to win.

As for certain masters that are plain better than others, it seems that the general consensus on the forums is that Perdita and Lilith are the more straight forward masters while Zoraida, Som'er and Leveticus are harder to figure out. Som'er isn't necessarily that hard to figure out (keep the gremlin and mosquito factory up and you can't go wrong) but because his choice of crew is very limited and the Gremlins (including Som'er) aren't the best fighters out there. Leveticus because he has to be precision killed every round or every second round to keep the cards coming to his hand so that he can lay waste on his enemies with spells. And Zoraida has to rely on her crew a bit more as she's not a master that wants to go into the middle of the combat to deal damage. She's more of a support master that does annoying things to the enemies so as to let her crew have it a bit easier during combat.

[higherbrow]

Perdita and Pandora seem like the worst matchup to me, in Perdita's favor. But you really need to look at faction versus faction if balance is your interest. The Guild is generally the easiest faction to learn, as it has 2 very solid and very straightforward masters, and a third master that's not too hard to learn. In addition, each of its masters is tailored to fight one of the other main three factions. But there are masters in those factions that can deal with their Guild counters, so it isn't too hard.

What you really need to understand is that the ability to switch masters based on what your opponent's faction and objectives are allows you to really play the metagame of trying to land the niche crew for the fight you're anticipating. If you know you and your opponent both need assassinate, taking a defensive master with a small, elite crew is a good idea, whereas with reconnoiter, a field control master and a fast, large crew would be much better. So balance is really very good because each master shines against different opponents in different circumstances.

[brucemanning]

There are so many variables in the game:

- Masters

- What Crew you take with them

- Strategies

- Schemes

- Activation Order <--Big, big one there

- What hands you are dealt

- Your's and your opponent's knowledge of your crews

Agreed. I also think that the number of models makes a difference re who gets to go last. This is offset by only having a limited number of control cards that need to be managed if you have a large model count.

[The Mortificator]

I tend to over-analyze little "issues" of balance in other games and, when I first started, I did the same with Malifaux. However, I've sort of gotten over it. I mostly approach the game exactly as it claims to be: "character-driven". I build a list I feel has a cool theme and play it, I try to play in the style I feel the characters on the board would (Sonnia is very methodical while Seamus loves to room around and do loony stuff) and, generally, try to just have fun. Yeah, it's pretty much roleplaying in a tabletop wargame, but I've grown tired of the stress I feel with all other miniatures games where it's a constant struggle on numbers and abilities trying to counter one another. Malifaux is going to be my "chill" game. Fortunately, the game seems to lend it very well to this mentality, assuming you have an equally easy-going group of local players.

Oddly enough, Malifaux is the only miniatures game I've ever enjoyed painting models for. Sure, the smaller numbers help, but, also, looking at them doesn't remind me of a dozen reasons why such-and-such model doesn't need paint since they never end up on the table.

[Massaen]

Balance is good for the most part. As others have mentioned, some masters are an uneven match up but nothing is impossible.

I have found the smaller games show up balance issues more then larger ones... less then 25SS it gets tough.

[Solarhaphaeriom]

Ah, so you can pick master and crew after seeing the opposing faction, and the strategies. That certainly changes things.

So every model in a faction can work with any master in the faction? And all the Outcasts too, or only some of them? Though obviously some will have more synergy than others. How many entries are there for each faction, compared to what's out now?

[Calisto]

Not all outcasts necisarily.

Mercenaries will work for any crew, at one extra SS cost.

Also certain Outcasts are also afiliated with a faction, such as Johan is a MSU member, and can be taken in an arcanist list at base cost.

[The Mortificator]

Ah, so you can pick master and crew after seeing the opposing faction, and the strategies. That certainly changes things.

You can build your crew after you know what the game's objectives are going to be, but, since you and your opponent build crews at the same time, you wouldn't be privy to the models they're bringing. It still benefits you to run something you feel is an all-comer's list for the objectives you have.

[assimilation]

You choose your faction, then determine strategies, then build your crew.

What this means, is that you know your opponent will be neverborn with treasure hunt. And they know you will be arcanist with assassinate.

They can then choose to build any legal crew with a neverborn master and the models they have (or proxy). Most players locally have a limited selection, such as myself, so it tends to be one master, with a selection of various minions, but if they have multiple masters from the same faction they are free to choose which one to use based upon your faction and your strategy.

This can introduce some balance issues when a new player with a small selection plays somebody with a much larger force, in that one person can tailor to the game much better than the other. If this is an issue, you can always agree to predetermine lists, or restrict the number of models available to choose from, or some such.

[nilus]

You choose your faction, then determine strategies, then build your crew.

Although this is true for most tournaments, in standard play(as written), you don't even need to pick a faction ahead of time.

[assimilation]

Ahh yes, I got that mixed up now, didn't I.