Why are Gremlins So Squishy? (In Which I wonder how to keep alive past turn two)

[Beanstheclown]

Ok. So I've read through just about every thread in here concerning Som'er Teeth and I've been trying to play Gremlins effectively using the strategies and such that have been suggested. It's not working. My biggest problem is the high mortality rate of my models in the opening two turns.

How do I keep models past turn two? Frankly I can't figure out how to have models past turn one hardly. I can never seem to get of "git your bro" so I can't gain new models (ok to be fair I'd put it more at rarely, meaning maybe one new gremlin per game).

It seems that any time I so much as think about firing a boomstick at anything the gremlins decide to shoot each other in the back instead which results in me consistently killing off half of my own army within a matter of minutes.

Sure I get extra cards but there aren't any models to activate by the time I get them so that doesn't help me. And discarding back down to five at the end phase means I can't even take advantage of it the next turn either.

If I try to take pigs instead of gremlins, as most people seem to suggest, they get shot up and die quick. I've played three separate games now where my warpig died first turn, and I hadn't run him up all that far either.

I can't cast the mosquito nuke worth anything, and when I do it's negated by soulstones anyways and the skeeters die immediately following the attempt.

So far the only way I can see to actually have any models beyond turn two is to not advance, not attack, and not shoot. But then I might as well not even deploy an army.

What am I doing Wrong?

I really want to enjoy this game. I really want to enjoy this faction. I really just want to enjoy myself in general. But when literally every game I have played so far has found me in turn two with Teeth, a mosquito, and one heavily damaged gremlin, it's getting to where I hardly want to even play anymore.

The only advice I have found locally is either, "You're just not doing it right" which may be the case (though noone seems to be able to tell me what doing it right looks like), or "The gremlin army sucks you should play insert completely diferrent and not at all interesting master here"

Is there anyone out there who can consistently win, not draw (as it seems that's the other advice for gremlins; "play for the draw"), but win, who can tell me exactly how to manage this every time, or at least often enough that you can't call the game before you even pull out models?

If it seems like I've got a defeatist attitude I would like to point out that this was not the case when i started. It is only after repeated decimating losses that I am starting to lose the enthusiasm and can do spirit that I had over my initial failures.

I'll admit I'm somewhat of a newb to this game, I still haven't figured out exactly how everything works out. But his is the only miniatures game where I started into it fresh and was completely unable to so much as survive, let alone win. And I've played'play most every popular miniatures game on the market currently.

Summation of this wall of text: Why does my entire army evaporate by turn three? How to actually get spells off (even soulstoning doesn't seem to help)? What can Gremlins do to consistently win? I am starting to consider dropping the game I am that downhearted.

[greenstuff_gav]

while i'm not a Som'er player myself, my regular opponent is and some thoughts;

his 25SS list is:

Som'er

Whisperer

Warpig

Piglet

Piglet

Piglet

the rest in gremlins (3? 4?)

Piglets / Warpig; the spell to make 'em fly (Never Happen? the Whisperer) and having 'em thunder toward my lines (so closer to me than the gremlins) gives me headaches; next turn when they all stampede, the warpig can do obscene amounts of damage!

While gremlins die rather easily, don't forget Som'ers' Getcher Bro; inflict this on a gremlin in base contact, summon a new gremlin and then heal the original one... so long as you keep Som'er and this one gremlin safe and hidden away you should have a near-infinate amount of troops

the alternate is Getcher Bro and then have Som'er hit the wounded goblin in combat; he should kill him and his weapon (Come and get it) will also summon a piglet

another note on the gremlins; try to keep 'em in cover and have them all shoot at the same target; concentrate your fire to cause mass damage (especially with Dumb Luck) before they snuff it (as you've seen; they die easily; this is to be expected. hence Getcher Bro to replenish the ranks )

don't forget Schemes help too; take Bodyguard (Som'er) as an example; easy victory points

i'm sure someone will come along with a better insight, but there's a few observations i've had

[Tyrant]

Well, with your first few problems, allow me to present decent solutions. I got a Gremlin crew as a joke crew, and now they are my power gaming crew, here's a few things that I changed up to change them from lose on turn two, into win.

- First, never cast Git yer Bro unless you know that it will go off, as in, make sure you have the card in your hand before you even cast it, it's a difficult cast, don't rely on luck.

- Second, Boomstick strikes aren't something that you want to make all the time, as they can go wild. Instead of making the regular strike, you can move, and then perform the (2)Focused Strike, giving you +1 Fate on the attack flip, now your chances of missing go way down. It costs you 1Wd to spend the 3AP, but I find that it's worth it.

- Use piglets as your front, instead of sending the gremlins into die (Which they will) send the things in with a Df6, especially if you can make them stampede, which gives you 3 charges in one turn.

- Skeeters seem hit or miss, I've never actually brought them to the table, but with thier ability to cast Sooeeey (Which means all your pigs get a free move!), Pull Mah Finger (Which you seem to have issues with due to Soul Stones, try it against non masters, or in the middle of several models and hit'em all!)

- Hitting your own guys on purpose. Might seem iffy, but use Som'er to stab a Gremlin that only has one wound left when you can cheat a Crow into the mix, suddenly you summon a fresh new pig. Or you can make Boomer or "Ya'll Watch This!" strikes against your old Skeeter who has 1-2 Wounds left, cheat it up so that you get severe damage, and then you have some blast markers to throw down.

- Try to make sure that whenever a Gremlin dies, he's close to Som'er or a whisperer, those two extra cards can be just what you need.

Hopefully I've helped a little bit, these are some of the things I know that I changed in order to win.

EDIT: Not a bad list, it's actually identical to the one that I use, but I always tend to play 30SS, and have a couple more Gremlin.

[n0signal]

Som'er

Whisperer

Warpig

Piglet

Piglet

Piglet

the rest in gremlins

Yup, this is pretty much the same list that I've been playing, altho I might take a Gremlin out for a Skeeter in the future to give them a try. In my experience, you only need one or two Gremlins, as you just burn an 11+ each turn to bring on another, and as mentioned either heal one of them or stab one of them for a fresh healthy Piglet.

I too send the Pigs up front, Pigcharging over terrain with Never Happen and perhaps with a reactivated Warpig. The Pigs can't stampede against each other, so they're safe to go nuts while Jones creates more of them in the back and sends them forward.

Because Jones is sat in my deployment zone, spawning a load of Gremlins and Piglets, I usually take Bodyguard and Hold Out as my schemes; if anything comes in my deployment zone then they get a face full of focused boomstick strikes... or Jones himself lets rip his boomer on them if it's against another master.

[ispep]

I've only played one game so far with my Gremlins, but I had captured the treasure counter and totally wiped out my opponent by turn 3.

I played:

Crew Cost: 22/25 Remaining: 3 Soulstones: 3

Name Cost

Som'er Teeth Jones 0

Giant Mosquito 2

Giant Mosquito 2

Bayou Gremlin 2

Piglet 3

Hog Whisperer 5

Warpig 8

I think his crew was just the Victoria box + Convict Gunslinger.

I think the biggest thing to remember is that your models will die. Bayou Gremlins and Piglets are expendable. The Warpig is a glass cannon of sorts. The 12 wounds seems like he'd be a tank, but he's only got Df 5, the wounds are there as a resource.

Make sure once the pigs start stampedeing to keep your models out of range/LoS. On the surface, Stampede looks like its more of a detriment than a benefit, but its really powerful if you are careful with it.

Ya'll Watch This is huge. Once again, remember that Gremlins only purpose is to die.

[Justin]

I totally and completely understand how you feel. I felt the exact same way about my gremlins at first. So, let me just start off by saying that they are probably one of the more difficult crews to play and sommer is probably one of the two weakest masters in the game.

That said, you can win with him, but it will be difficult and if you make any mistakes it could be the end for you. And there are certain match up you just can't win. If you're up against Lilith or Perdita, and you draw assassinate, you're basically screwed. Let's just hope that doesn't happen to you. (this was my problem when I first started, I was just getting horrible match ups)

Ok, so tactics.

I always start the game with two mosquitoes. And depending on my hand, my very first action is to use Larvae with one of them to sacrifice a gremlin and summon another mosquito. This accomplished two things: 1) it draws me cards right off the bat increasing the likelihood of casting git yer bro 2) it wounds the mosquitoes (since they don't start the game that way) so sommer can heal them on his activation. Then, depending on my hand, the summoned mosquito can larvae another gremlin, netting me another mosquito and two more cards. Never start the game with all four mosquitoes. Using larvae and killing off your gremlins costs you nothing (since skeeters and gremlins are the same price) and nets you two cards.

So, why do I start with two mosquitoes instead of one? I use the second mosquito to move up the field and cast sooey to net my pigs 10" of extra movement. This is nice because the pigs get to move even if the spell fails.

Hopefully now sommer has the cards to cast git yer bro successfully. This spell is difficult enough to pull off that you shouldn't bother without the right card in your hand. Don't waste a soul stone summoning a two soul stone model, save those to keep sommer alive. I usually summon two gremlins and heal one mosquito. Healing the skeeters is nice because you can potentially have a 6 wound model with defense 7. Also it allows you to use gremlins luck with the skeeters which greatly increases the range of the spell (10" walk and flight) and keeps wounds off of sommer. Gremlins luck is absolutely key with this crew, try to pull it off at least once per turn after the first turn (as early in the turn as possible) and, if sommer does it, use a soul stone to prevent some wounds, he'll hurt himself enough.

I like to use the hog whisperer to reactivate and heal the warpig first turn (hell, any turn) and send it charging at the enemy. He's also good up field to help you take advantage of card draw for gremlins dying too far from sommer.

Gremlins are good, incredibly diverse in their abilities. As has already been mentioned, a move + focus will help you from hitting your own models. Also, with that move it is sometimes possible to move out of line of sight or range of your own models to avoid hitting them. Flip for it I find to be key, especially if you are holding some odd cards in your hand. (if you find yourself cheating before you use flip for it, try to burn through your even cards) Terrifying can also help burn through your opponent's hand and avoid harmless. And, if your opponent doesn't have a hand (they shouldn't) a bad flip might result in their model losing two turns falling back. They're not horrible in melee either with reckless abandon and dumb luck.

Pigs, obviously, charge up field early on and stampede all over your opponent's face. This is good to tie up your opponent while you produce more gremlins (or pigs by killing gremlins with sommer). Careful use of sooey in between activating your pigs can help to target where you want them, since you can't really control them while they stampede. Also, remember that a warpig can eat your fill during a stampede thanks to the errata.

Gremlin's biggest weakness is high defense targets. The highest combat in the entire crew (with the exception of sommer alone) is 4. Df 7 or 8 are near untouchable, especially while in defensive stance. My advice: avoid them, don't even bother hitting them. But, if you absolutely have to, a boomer strike with sommer triggering dumb luck can potentially do 10 damage and take out a master in one shot. Not very likely though and I have found that if sommer is close enough to shoot, he's too close for comfort. He prefers to sit in the back making models, but this is a last resort tactic. Flip for it also helps against high defense targets, but not enough. The mosquito stank cloud is supposed to help, but has the problems you mentioned: being negated by soul stones and leaving your mosquitoes to die the next turn if it doesn't work. Personally, I prefer the stank cloud in moderation and against non-masters, but sometimes you draw assassinate.

So, that's all I can think of right now. I still couldn't tell you how to beat Lilith or Perdita in assasinate, but hopefully my tactics work a bit for you.

Here are a few battles I fought with my gremlins. I didn't exactly win them all, but keep in mind most were against their toughest opponent (in my opinion) Lilith:

http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9706

[Tyrant]

So, that's all I can think of right now. I still couldn't tell you how to beat Lilith or Perdita in assasinate, but hopefully my tactics work a bit for you.

Aiming for specific models can be difficult, especially when using stampeding pigs to achieve your goal, luckily you have a little bit of control over the pigs when they stampede and can stop short, effectively double or triple tapping the same model, against a high Df model like Lilith, you might get one hit in, but that's why you bring three or four piglets. On that note, I never rely on stampeding piglets to even do moderate damage, rely on them doing the 2 damage each time, and consider it a bonus when they do better.

Also against high Defense models, don't rule out the Boomer Strike, strat with Som'er and a Skeeter about 10" of several of your opponents models, activate the Skeeter, and then Som'er due to companion (This also works with a low health gremlin if your opponent is out of models), but with the skeeter, you move, Pull mah finger, then activate Som'er, shoot the Skeeter, and cheat in a severe, suddenly you get two blast markers that you get to drop (Also works well with "Ya'll watch this!")

Between "Pull mah finger!" and blast tokens that you can throw down, the solution to High Defense models is to not go up against their defense.

[Justin]

Aiming for specific models can be difficult, especially when using stampeding pigs to achieve your goal, luckily you have a little bit of control over the pigs when they stampede and can stop short, effectively double or triple tapping the same model, against a high Df model like Lilith, you might get one hit in, but that's why you bring three or four piglets. On that note, I never rely on stampeding piglets to even do moderate damage, rely on them doing the 2 damage each time, and consider it a bonus when they do better.

Also against high Defense models, don't rule out the Boomer Strike, strat with Som'er and a Skeeter about 10" of several of your opponents models, activate the Skeeter, and then Som'er due to companion (This also works with a low health gremlin if your opponent is out of models), but with the skeeter, you move, Pull mah finger, then activate Som'er, shoot the Skeeter, and cheat in a severe, suddenly you get two blast markers that you get to drop (Also works well with "Ya'll watch this!")

Between "Pull mah finger!" and blast tokens that you can throw down, the solution to High Defense models is to not go up against their defense.

Yeah, I've been over this in other threads. Killing high defense models with gremlins (particularly Lilith) isn't all that simple.

The blast marker thing seems like it should work, but the blast marker is 2.1 inches. Lilith's melee range is 2 inches. So you have a margin of 0.1 inch to place your model in a game that doesn't allow premeasuring. Good luck. Now, you can still shoot your own model if it's in melee with Lilith, but this means you have a 50% chance of hitting Lilith and, if you happen to hit your model, it boosts a defense which is already higher than your combat. And, since you're generally gunning for severe, you need that threshold of 6 cb > df to be able to achieve a hit without a minus flip for damage so you can cheat.

Sommer's Boomer strike can drop two templates on severe...but you have to get severe. So, best case scenario you pull it off three times in one turn doing, at max, 6 damage. (6 damage chopped into three increments of 2, so your opponent can make 3 prevention flips) Now, this is very unlikely to even pull off but, assuming you did, a smart Lilith player will have just saved all of her soul stones for healing.

And stampeding pigs don't work at all against high defense models. (particularly masters which is what we are talking about here) Their combat is no better than that of a gremlin. The problem isn't doing damage, the problem is hitting in the first place. A good Lilith/Perdita player will basically always be in defensive stance against gremlins. Now, I know I've thrown this math around before BUT...68% of the time, when in defensive stance, Lilith or Perdita will flip a card so high that it is impossible for gremlins to hit her without a joker. And the other 32% of the time...you still probably miss. And that's assuming they don't cheat or add a soul stone.

The stank cloud with the mosquitoes is the only real answer to this, but it isn't as effective in practice as on paper. Mosquitoes need a 10 to pull off pull my finger, so you end up doing a lot of cheating/using soul stones. Also, they hit other mosquitoes with this ability, so you have to be very careful with your placement. And, as the OP noted, if they fail they tend to be vulnerable and die the next turn/later the same turn. And once they're gone...you've got nothing left to deal with high defense. And, when targeting a master (which is what we're talking about here) the damage can just be prevented with soul stones. A damage prevention flip will negate all damage from pull my finger 8/13 of the time and half of it 5/13 of the time.

Sommer does have a cb higher than 4 and he does have the best attack in the crew. But, in general, if he gets in range to use it, he's way too close. Lilith can tear his head off very easily. Perdita does a pretty good job too. Even shooting at your own mosquito and hitting them in the blast, you're pretty close. (especially considering Lilith's transposition or Perdita's range)

That's not to mention...these masters have other models on the table as well to take out your only threat. (the mosquitoes)

If a Lilith player knows how to take out gremlins (and knowing how is the key) beating her with this crew should be very, VERY difficult and, in the case of assassinate, nigh impossible. In my opinion, Lilith just has to:

1) Take a full cache of soul stones and use them for nothing but damage prevention and the occasional necessary defense boost. And maybe to kill sommer.

2) Make ample use of defensive stance. More or less always use it as your last action except first turn.

3) Bee line straight for sommer and kill him. Once sommer dies, the whole gremlin crew basically shuts down.

4) Use the other models in your crew to eliminate the only threats. (mosquitoes)

5) Body guard Lilith. It's two free victory points.

In the case of assassinate, 3 isn't even necessary. However, should you decide to kill sommer anyway, a companioned mature nephilim always makes it easier.

I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record here, but so is the advice I'm getting about facing Lilith. I must really wonder about how the Lilith players you guys are facing are differing from those I am.

Don't get me wrong; I like the gremlins. You can do well with them. But you have to understand that going into a match up like this with them is going to be hard. Really hard. It's like having Seamus face a bunch of constructs which ignore moral duels. (ok, Seamus actually has it much easier than the gremlins in this example, but still) It's not easy, and not necessarily a fair representation of the crew as a whole. So, my point is that if these are the match ups that the OP is getting frustrated with, that is totally understandable, but rest assured gremlins work much better against other masters. And, if they're not the match ups the OP is getting frustrated with, then hopefully he can play around with the gremlins a bit and find a happy balance.

Edited January 13, 2010 by Justin

[AoM]

You're worrying too much about Lilith and Perdita. if you take out their crews while keeping a few of yours around, you're standing a better chance of being the one with the most VP at the end of the game. Unless you've got assassination, you're fine. And if you get assassination against either of them, declare your Schemes and then achieve them for 4 VP. VP denial is just as effective as killing other models.

[Justin]

You're worrying too much about Lilith and Perdita. if you take out their crews while keeping a few of yours around, you're standing a better chance of being the one with the most VP at the end of the game. Unless you've got assassination, you're fine. And if you get assassination against either of them, declare your Schemes and then achieve them for 4 VP. VP denial is just as effective as killing other models.

While I do understand that Perdita and Lilith are only two masters out of fifteen, I just wanted to let the OP know that if those were his match ups, a hard time was understandable.

I must disagree to an extent, VP denial is more effective than killing other models. After all, that's what the game is all about. So, yeah, I get that. But try getting any VP when playing a Lilith player who walks up and kills sommer 2nd-3rd turn in every game. Gremlins just fall apart after that. Not to mention he announced a body guard on Lilith and a kidnap on sommer (or just some random piglet if he feels lazy) so he's accomplishing his schemes...

So, am I making my point any better? The problem isn't just that I can't kill the opposing master. Most of my games I don't kill the opposing master, not just because I can't, but often the situation doesn't call for it. The problem is that against Perdita or Lilith, my opponent has this Sommer Teeth seeking missile that is impervious to damage and almost never fails to kill him. With a powerful enough Df 8 model with Use Soulstones they can just walk over a swarm of gremlins and murder Sommer, and there's not much to stop them. That is the problem. And, if Sommer goes down before turn 5, it's more or less lights out for the gremlins.

Anyway, this thread was supposed to be about advice for a new player, not my own personal rant. So I won't post again unless he has a question. Sorry about that, I never could walk away from a discussion.

Edited January 15, 2010 by Justin

[Beanstheclown]

Thank you very much for the advice. I'm actually surprised at how quick and pleasant the replies to this thread were, I'm not used to that . I honestly think this is the first board I've been on where the response to a new player requesting information wasn't essentially "you suck go kill yourself". I rather appreciate that.

So after reading what you have posted it seems that much of my problem may be due to match ups. Thankfully I have not seen Lilith but it sounds like I wouldn't want to. However, I know for a fact that three of my games have been against Perdita and two of those were assassinate so I guess that explains that. The other games I've played against were McMourning (I think that was his name. He kept grabbing body parts and summoning golems like crazy), Rasputina, and some dude who can't be killed and any time he is comes back from the dead, with extra models. I'm not sure exactly who that guy is, (I lost my rulebook before I could finish reading all the stats and haven't gotten a replacement yet) but he was a severe pain to fight, especially since, yet again, I drew assassinate.

So since it seems that assassinate is the hardest for gremlins to accomplish and I seem to draw it every other time what is the best strategy for this. I'm pretty sure I could handle the other missions with a bit of practice, I actually didn't do too bad when I drew claim jump (comparatively), but I have no idea how to approach anything where I actually have to kill stuff, especially the masters.

A couple of extra questions. How many models should I expect to be looking at getting for an optimal scrap and or brawl sized game? In other words should things go well how many gremlins/piggies will be on the table at the same time? A rough estimate will be fine since I know that nothing is ever 100% guaranteed to work optimally and lists will vary. I'm just looking for a ballpark figure to start looking towards for budgetting purposes.

Second, in a brawl sized game what other masters can Teeth actually pair up with? I'm a bit confused on the way that those rules work. It says that he can pair with Zoraida and Outcasts but none of the outcast masters can take Gremlins/Pigs. Does this mean he can only go with Zoraida, or do you count the two masters as separate forces with their own separate crews that just happen to be working together? If the former, is Zoraida worth taking with him if all you can take is gremlins/pigs/vermine? If the latter, how would he pair up with the one Outcast lady who has the two models instead of one (I can't remember her name, rulebook gone + faulty memory, but the one version is two swords and the other is a sword[masamune?] and a gun). I liked what I read of her back story and the models/rules seemed cool, but I don't know whether she would work with teeth or not.

I guess what I'm getting at with this is how does Teeth work with other masters if at all? Would he do better with a second master/crew backing him up or would he do better just focusing on his own talents? If he can get along what are some of his optimal pairings?

[cain]

If the former, is Zoraida worth taking with him if all you can take is gremlins/pigs/vermine?

The witch got a spell to forbid enemies to play control cards.

And to get control over the next flipped cards.

This could be fun. Combined with Flip for it from the Bayous and a bit luck (or a bit more, i think gremlin players will always need this) and it may be possible to gun down even a Def 8 model in defensive stance with the poor 2p Gremlins.

By the way, Lilith is not immune to fear, and Bayous can get terrifying. Chances for her to run away maybe low but we have already seen pigs fly.

Can be fun to make her burn cards or soulstones because of one lausy Gremlin.

[n0signal]

Not meaning to high jack the thread; but doesn't the Kidnap scheme specificy that it must be a Master killed in melee (I wasn't under the impression that you could pick any ol' Minion - but it may be an oversight on my part so someone please correct me)?

Back on topic. People will no doubt come on and say that you need a zillion Gremlins to make Som'er Teeth work, and maybe that is true at larger game sizes. I personally only play about 25-30SS games and have found that the box set's 4 Gremlins are more than enough as I usually only start with one anyway. You'll need a Hog Whisperer or two and a blister pack of Piglets tho, for a total of 4-5 Piglets, as these are the up-field attackers and it's worth killing Gremlins to bring more on the board. Also, if you intend to run 'Skeeters then I'd recommend the full 4 of them, as again they're fairly easy to summon by killing Gremlins. (It's this constant killing of Gremlins that keeps their numbers down in my experience and why I never have more than 4 or 5 on the board - but if you're going to theme the army to be Gremlin heavy and go for volleys of Boomstick fire then you'll obviously need more.)

As for Brawls; I believe Zoraida was already nasty with Jones, but not after her Errata she'll be even nastier. The two together give you some powerful abilities to control how the enemy cheat fate. Jones can drain their hand with Gremlin's Luck and Zoraida can use Crystal Ball to re-order the top of their deck so that you know the card coming up is an un-cheatable weak card. Now, with the new Conduit rules on the Voodoo Doll (her summoned Totem) it means that the connected enemy model will already take 2Wd upon activating, and you can sent a 'Skeeter up to fart on them for another 2Wd - 4Wd without anything to stop it is pretty nasty on a Minion! They synergise well in lots of the ways too but another thing to consider is that because of Enthrall on Zoraida, she is the only other Master in the game that can use the Gremlin and Pig models in her normal Crew. So you can also get more mileage out of the models you already own.

[AoM]

I recommend owning a pair of Warpigs, and 2 blisters (or a box and a blister) of gremlins. as for piglets, 2 blisters. and a Whisperer. You'll probably want at least 2 Skeeters, too. Should serve you well for a bunch of lists.

And never forget Focus for the Bayou Gremlins. walk, then Focus. Your boom stick becomes much better, and you're only taking 1 Wd. They're going to die quickly anyway, and Som'er Teeth has ways to help that along, or heal them up. Never. Forget. Focus.

[DireTrollJake]

I keep seeing recommendations for a 2nd blister of Piglets...4 seems plenty to me, as I've never wanted to run more than 3. Any explanation why you'd want 7?

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

I must disagree to an extent, VP denial is more effective than killing other models. After all, that's what the game is all about. So, yeah, I get that. But try getting any VP when playing a Lilith player who walks up and kills sommer 2nd-3rd turn in every game. Gremlins just fall apart after that. Not to mention he announced a body guard on Lilith and a kidnap on sommer (or just some random piglet if he feels lazy) so he's accomplishing his schemes...

It seems your Lilith player is cheating where you play. Kidnap only allows you to nominate Masters or Henchmen as valid VP rewards. And if I'm not mistaken, there aren't any Henchmen models yet.

And with the change to Master of Malifaux, She's not quite as speedy as she used to be.

[Justin]

It seems your Lilith player is cheating where you play. Kidnap only allows you to nominate Masters or Henchmen as valid VP rewards. And if I'm not mistaken, there aren't any Henchmen models yet.

And with the change to Master of Malifaux, She's not quite as speedy as she used to be.

You're right! He was! I think he mistook henchman for minion, since I doubt he knew what a henchman was. It doesn't make any real difference, since he usually kidnapped sommer.

And you're definitely correct about the changes helping. I think they will help a lot, since she can't just move in a straight line across the whole board. And the change in defensive stance should help too. (a lot, actually) I'm looking forward to retrying this.

Well, so much for not posting about this again. But, hey, for once at least it's not a complaint.

Edited January 15, 2010 by Justin

[Justin]

I keep seeing recommendations for a 2nd blister of Piglets...4 seems plenty to me, as I've never wanted to run more than 3. Any explanation why you'd want 7?

Probably because sommer can make a piglet when he kills a model with a melee strike, and a lot of people (myself included) like to hit a direly wounded gremlin for a fully healed pig.

As to the OP's questions:

I own 12 bayou gremlins, 4 piglets (I want more for reasons listed above), two war pigs, 4 skeeters, and one hog whisperer. I see a lot of people running less gremlins (including n0signal, who knows what he's talking about when it comes to gremlins, so I'm sure it works) but I like loading my hand up with cards early on with larvae and using git yer bro as often as I can. And I usually start at least four gremlins and I think I play larger games on average. (40-45). So, that's what I have for models. Obviously, there are other options.

As for other masters: I think in a brawl sommer is absolutely better combined with another master. He is a support master and he can always benefit from a beefyer model on the table, or some extra manipulation. The only two masters he can ally with are the Victorias (the twins you couldn't remember the name of) and Zoraida. Both combinations work fantastic. The Victorias add some much needed hitting power, while sommer can sit back and do his thing. And Zoraida's ability to maniplulate an opponent's deck couples very well with gremlin's luck. So, take your pick. I picked up Zoraida since I can use my gremlins with her without sommer and I thought it was more economically efficient, but the Victorias look fun, and I plan on making them my next purchase.

[Gremlin Swarm]

I've found that my Gremlins (I tend to go nuts and cram in as many Gremlins and Skeeters as I can) tend to do best when they can steadily wear down my opponents. You could amybe think of the Gremlins as the Tie Fighters of this game--they zip in, do a little damage, then die. The trick is to get enough little whacks in before running out of Gremlins.

Of course, if you go pig-heavy, then you can go for the damage-bomb approach. Those hogs can be brutal.

As mentioned above (several times), Focus is great with the Gremlins.

Don't forget, too, that if the scenario you're playing requires grabbing something, if you've got a lot of models, you have more chances (albeit squishy/fragile ones) to grab it/them.

I've also managed to bug a couple of my opponents' bigger models (the Mosquito's Infestation spell) by timing it for when they're out of cards or seem to not be able to cheat their defensive flips up. Each time, I made sure I had the right card to set it off in my hand, of course. It's very luck-heavy, but if you get the cards into your hand, it may well pay off to hold them until you can use them to max effect.

I know, most players don't like going for this one, but I've had a lot of fun with it, and really messed up a couple of opponents' plans.

Whatever you do, don't forget to have fun with these little blighters! (I usually do the voices for them, but then I admittedly get a bit silly when I play armies like this.) Play them for the fun factor, and you'll enjoy them a lot more, even if you have a hard time winning. This also helps you to get flustered less when it looks like your Gremlins are getting pasted, which can help you keep focused and make fewer tactical mistakes. (Sounds weird (Wyrd?), I know, but it's always worked for me.)

[Subötai]

Well, since I've only been playing the game for less than a month, I may not entirely know what I'm talking about, but I had similar problems early.

I own 8 gremlins, 4 piglets and 4 skeeters, and almost never field all of any of them.

Let's run down the issues:

1) Gremlins die too easy. Cover, LoS, Defensive Stance and giving the opponent more critical targets to attack will help this. Also, if Gremlins die, more important things aren't dying, and everything else is more important.

2) Som'er Teeth-seeking missles. ST usually doesn't move my first turn as he is casting Get Yur Bro and/or healing Skeeters. Warpig should frighten any master because 3 attacks at 3/5/7 Dam with a +flip on the Dam will give any model pause. Skeeters can damage and/or tie up stuff at range.

3) really tough models--keep the warpig alive and he can kill an entire opposing force, use your numbers to overwhelm when possible (Stampeding piglet + 2 skeeters can clear out a cluster of any force)

Strengths of the Bayou Gang:

a) numbers--you will start with maybe twice the activations as your opponent, so you can always out-wait your opponent.

Pull My Finger--auto-damage burst spell that can ignore some of your own troops.

c) Stampede--Stampeding pigs should be feared by your opponent, and if he doesn't, you need to teach him

d) lots of healing--there are alot of ways this army can heal itself

e) speed--only Skeeters can't go Reckless, Skeeters fly, pigs can be pushed all around the board 10" at a time

f) fun--since I grew up in a place with an accent, I can lay it on thick; lots of flavor in the abilities/actions/spells names, etc.

g) summoning all over the place

h) Som'er Teeth can empty your opponent's hand with no opposed flip

Edited April 15, 2010 by Subötai

[Joona]

h) Som'er Teeth can empty your opponent's hand with no opposed roll

More importantly, a fully healed skeeter can do that too. And if the opponent has already used some, you'll even be left with a skeeter that can do something next round too. Or your opponent will have to concentrate a lot of forces to kill a model with Df7 without hand cards.

And anyways, keeping the Gremlins alive isn't necessarily what you want unless playing Reconnoiter (if so, don't use reckless, just swarm the board with Gremlins and Piglets, they can use that all action to become significant). If you can sacrifice a Gremlin with one or two wounds left to use Ya'll Watch this and possibly shoot something and ping the two damage on something else, go for it. It's also good against Ressers as you're not leaving corpse counters behind. On average you should be be able to summon one Gremlin every turn with Git Y'er Bro. And pretty much for every soulstone you don't use on your crew you can either get an extra Gremlin or save Som'er from something killing him during the actual game.

[gru6y]

I personaly don't give a frig if they are squeeshy or non-competetive.

I've just received my Somer, 8 gremlins, 8 pigglets, 2 whisperers, 4 skeeters and a warpig. I'm all hyped up and ready to rock!

[shekbo]

Ok, as a part time Some'er player, here's my take.

Yeah, it's really hard to win some games. Slaughter and assassinate are hard. That said, they're hard for your opponent to win too. The outcast scheme Thwart is sometimes all you need to win a contest, just focus on stopping your opponent from doing their thing instead of actually doing yours.

Secondly, your mosquitoes have a few strange tricks up their sleeves. for example: They can masochize themselves and force your opponents to drop their hands, which makes it a lot easier to avoid shooting yourself in the back, or alternatively, they can use themselves as bombs, striking hard to hit opponents with Some'er Teeth's pull my finger (I once killed a convict gunslinger and Lilith that way. It's effective as it is humiliating for your opponent.)

Also, gremlins ARE squishy. It's actually their strength. With their deaths you can do a lot of interesting things, as long as you keep getting bros along the way (save up high cards for that.) and remember that after you get bros or mosquitoes, heal them with take a swig for an even better fighting chance. Also, if gremlins die, they can explode. This is great for charging into near melee with your opponents expensive models, attacking their big, low defense guy with your boomstick attack, then exploding and blowing away all their mooks. And this is a figure you can just keep getting more of.

Gremlins are tough, yes, but I've found that with some innovative tactics you can be unexpectedly nasty against armies that are limited in summoning power.

[Gremlin Swarm]

If you've got the right cards (tricky/chancy, I know, though all you really need is one good Ram) you could also pull off Y'all Watch This and compound it with Dumb Luck (since Y'all Watch This is a Boomstick Strike with modified damage). If you get at least moderate damage, that's 4 damage and an explosion to the target(s). If you can manage severe, that's 8 damage (!) with 2 blast markers. On top of that, if you're close to enemy models, they take 2 damage flat-out. Tricky to get off, but well worth sacrificing a Gremlin.

(And yes, I admit I like going for fancy/complex combos sometimes.)

Just do a Gremlin-equivalent 'BANZAI!!!' and watch the slowly dawning horror on your opponent's face as the damage mounts...and they realize you have at least half a dozen more of those little blighters ready to go. :blowup: