Insane Zoraida combo

[Raintar]

Zoradia can take models that have a Wp of 4 or less so you take:

Nurse

Papa Loco

Student of Conflict

Juice up Loco so he has all three effects from Nurse. Use the Conflict to make him fast. Loco now moves 7" 3 times for 21" and reactivates. Then you can charge 10" and blow up or move twice for 14" and blow up because you keep fast with Student of Conflict when you reactivate. So you have a 31" charge with Loco and then you explode as you please, all on the first turn.

[Achilles]

Sure... but you're spending 17 stone to do it (Loco 7, Nurse 6, Student 4). And that move will be Telegraphed as soon as you activate the Nurse + Student to juice pops. You're gonna get to do it once and then you'll just see your opponent spread out.

And by the by... what else would you put in this force at 30 Stone to make it effective once Pops is dead turn 1? Are the Student and Nurse just going to stand around winning the game after this?

[karn987]

You make a heat seeking missile for 17 soul stones and as soon as they realize whats going on (which they will the first buff you put on loco) they will spread out and take measures to defend against this. This only works once and then loco is long gone.

Plus once he is buffed up, he will do his first activation then have to wait for the opponents to do their next activation before reactivate comes into play. That gives them a chance to react and do something to stop him. Sure he can't be killed, but you don't need to kill him to stop him. His wp is horrible so if you can shut him down through that route, he's a piece of cake to stop. He's not immune to terrifying and he is only a 4 wp, he can be forced to flee rather easily to.

Also, even though he gets +4cb with his melee weapon, he still has to hit with it and a bad flip can ruin this rather quickly. Its a one shot deal since he will probably get 1, maybe 2 attacks off before his time is up and he goes away.

BTW just so you know, BOOM! wont go off because Loco will be sacrificed and Killed and Sacrificed at different things in this game, so hope you weren't counting on that.

This really isn't an insane combo, it's cool but its by no means insane. You basically make a loco missile and fire him off towards the enemy. I like the idea, the visual in my head of Loco, frothing at the mouth as he runs at Sonic like speeds towards the enemy, lighting all his Dynamite as he goes, getting shot and stabbed by everything he passes and still some how living to jump into a group of people in the back and start throwing Dynamite.

[cain]

If i remember correctly one of the nurses effects will delete him after the first activation before reactivation kicks in.

[Omenbringer]

If i remember correctly one of the nurses effects will delete him after the first activation before reactivation kicks in.

No "painkillers" says after your next activation, so it will work as described.

As has been said though, I am not sure it is a very effective use of points.

[cain]

Juice up Loco so he has all three effects from Nurse. Use the Conflict to make him fast. Loco now moves 7" 3 times for 21"

After next activation is at this point. Before

and reactivates.

[karn987]

Ahh good catch. So if you put Painkillers on Loco, he would die after his first activation before he can reactivate due to Speed.

[Justin]

I would also wait until after the upcoming FAQ/errata to go buying totems from other factions for Zoraida, I don't know if she'll be able to take them. She might, but I wouldn't be terribly surprised if that changes since, right -- from a purely rules as written point of view -- Zoraida can have two totems in play, and I'm sure something will change to stop that.

[Raintar]

Sure... but you're spending 17 stone to do it (Loco 7, Nurse 6, Student 4). And that move will be Telegraphed as soon as you activate the Nurse + Student to juice pops. You're gonna get to do it once and then you'll just see your opponent spread out.

And by the by... what else would you put in this force at 30 Stone to make it effective once Pops is dead turn 1? Are the Student and Nurse just going to stand around winning the game after this?

Ok, so in 30 points you have the Zoradia, Nurse, Loco, Student for 17 points then you take 4 Terror Tot Nephilim. With the Nurses services, I can sprint one action potentially for 14", I'm also 'Fast' with the Student making for much better rockets. Tots also have Flay, 1/3/4 damage Cb 5 MASK base and black blood much better then my Necropunk or Canine Remains counterparts.

You make a heat seeking missile for 17 soul stones and as soon as they realize whats going on (which they will the first buff you put on loco) they will spread out and take measures to defend against this. This only works once and then loco is long gone.

Plus once he is buffed up, he will do his first activation then have to wait for the opponents to do their next activation before reactivate comes into play. That gives them a chance to react and do something to stop him.

With a list like this you said will be all worried about Loco and have to spread out. With my list I don't even have to move, I can stay right where I am and wait for you to come to me to launch Nephilim rockets at my problems as they inch closer to me. So I don't even need to do it first turn I can wait for you to come to me because none of my units really need to move. I can use Loco to strategically make you shift or split and if you commit too much, I can find an opening and use Zoradia's Obey to set up a massive Papa Loco explosion potentially knocking out key units.

Plus I will have 8 units on the board, meaning I will have alot of "dummy" activations where I can use an activation to do nothing so that I can use my activation and then see what you plan on doing and spend my good actions after you are done creating little room for you to maneuver away from rockets while keeping you fearful of Papa Loco.

As this point you're probably worried about how I will make my objectives standing so far back because that's the most important part of the game right?. So let's see how I'm going to do that:

Slaughter and Assassinate: no-brainers

Reconniter: Could be hard, it will just take me protecting my Tots and using Loco to scare them away from the Tots.

Treasure Hunt: I can use the Nurse to put Reactivate on Papa Loco and have him Shrug it off for a nice little addition to the combo. With Papa Loco's action depending how you move is key here. If you spread your guys out like you said you would, that makes it alot easier for me. Nurse injects Speed (Reactivate) on Papa Loco, walk for 5", walk for 5", walk for 5".

You get ONE chance to kill him from the middle of the board, and I have more 8 total activations so I can use some of the other actions I don't need to use first so I can see what you are doing. I also have Zoradia to force you to charge backwards so it covers Papa Loco from a unit that would potentially kill him from that range.

At this point I can freely pick up the objective and move away using Shrug Off to negate the sacrifice effect I would've had.

Claim Jump: By far the hardest one, and luckily the rarest one. The only way you're going to win this one is by luck any way you look at it. Oh well, I can pick from Hold Out, which should be easy because you're planning on speading out and avoiding me so much and Bodyguard Zoradia is usually a safe bet too because I don't see her moving from her corner not to mention I can use raven to get away, or I can pick Kidnap because my rockets are bound to get something good.

So there you have it, a list built around a combo that can win without it.

Edited December 28, 2009 by Raintar

[karn987]

Yes, with a bunch of dummy activations you can pull this off, but its still a 1 shot deal and all I have to be is spread out by about 5" and loco isn't that dangerous. That or just meet Loco head on with a good hand and cancel out any of his abilities with my own. Loco, all juiced up like this, takes 2 support models to get him going and then his duel activations, its a lot of time to see it coming. Even then, if the enemy has any armored units, they are just going to run straight into him and giggle. Your idea does make people focus on Loco and fear him for that 1 big go he can do. But once they realize it's not that bad, they will simply brush him aside like you can any model in this game.

The list has weaknesses, like any list, which you habitually seem to try and ignore Raintar. The terror tots are good models but very easy to kill like any spam model when you want them dead. The whole idea of making a missile platform army is interesting, but not a very strong list. Its fun and probably a hoot the first time. It just takes an aggressive enemy to bring that list crumbling to the ground, but that's not what this thread is about. I will instead simply suggest you try to seem less full of yourself when you post your list ideas. Your previous "ultimate list" posts from other threads should be evidence enough of how this turns out.

[nilus]

Just an FYI but I don't think you can shrug off the reactive ability of the nurse once your have used it.

Its a timing issue, but I believe the effect goes away as soon as the model reactivates, the sacrifice is a bi-product of that(not a separate effect).

[Keltheos]

I would also wait until after the upcoming FAQ/errata to go buying totems from other factions for Zoraida, I don't know if she'll be able to take them. She might, but I wouldn't be terribly surprised if that changes since, right -- from a purely rules as written point of view -- Zoraida can have two totems in play, and I'm sure something will change to stop that.

Zoraida will only be able to have 1 Totem in play with the Errata. The bringing out Totems without connecting them loophole is going away.

[newsun]

I am curious what happens with this plan once Loco is paralyzed? Or even worse, killed surrounded by your models at range?

[Justin]

Zoraida will only be able to have 1 Totem in play with the Errata. The bringing out Totems without connecting them loophole is going away.

I'm sure it will be. But will Zoraida still be able to take totems from other factions and simply choose not to summon her voodoo doll?

[Raintar]

The list has weaknesses, like any list, which you habitually seem to try and ignore Raintar. The terror tots are good models but very easy to kill like any spam model when you want them dead. The whole idea of making a missile platform army is interesting, but not a very strong list. Its fun and probably a hoot the first time. It just takes an aggressive enemy to bring that list crumbling to the ground, but that's not what this thread is about. I will instead simply suggest you try to seem less full of yourself when you post your list ideas. Your previous "ultimate list" posts from other threads should be evidence enough of how this turns out.

I make arguments and a list of points of why the list is good sure it's long but I'm going to cut down on it :X. You say this list has weaknesses so say them, why does this list have problems. You say that playing aggressively will counter this list but what you fail to say is WHY will playing aggressively stop this list? What is your reasoning behind it?

I actually played this list vs a 6 Ronin Viktoria list, probably one of the most aggressive lists out there and it was the first time I've seen that list get utterly curbstomped by anything. The problem with playing against this list is that it's hard to get close with alot of units to this list without leaving yourself open to Papa Loco and that the amount of dummy activations I have will most likely be more then yours so that I will be activating and doing my thing after you are done with everything.

[Omenbringer]

One big weakness I see with this is the lack of real substance. Sure Papa could do quite a bit of damage under the right circumstances (The typical spam list), but how do you deal with what survives the initial blast? Say Bette Noir, Ice Golem, Killjoy, Bad Juju or the like? Terror Tots will have some difficulty dealing with those (even with the nurse boosting and sacing them).

[Raintar]

I am curious what happens with this plan once Loco is paralyzed? Or even worse, killed surrounded by your models at range?

I agree with paralysis being a counter. But most units can't paralyze from range, and if they can, I won't be greedy and I'll stand far back and then run in and explode instead of charging or attacking or whatever.

Killing from range shouldn't be too much of a problem, you only have one activation to kill Loco from pretty far back and I have dummy actions to spare. This is a point also where you have to make a choice, if you move up and shoot you'd better kill him because he's going to run up and explode if you don't, it's risky but may be well worth it.

One big weakness I see with this is the lack of real substance. Sure Papa could do quite a bit of damage under the right circumstances (The typical spam list), but how do you deal with what survives the initial blast? Say Bette Noir, Ice Golem, Killjoy, Bad Juju or the like? Terror Tots will have some difficulty dealing with those (even with the nurse boosting and sacing them).

I also agree with this, to a point. Most of these units have average Wp (actually they are all Wp 5), these units are prime Zoradia targets using her spells in conjunction with Voodoo Doll. So hopefully I can Obey them to charge away from me, and charging something with a big nasty like any of these units will do obscene amounts of damage as well, so really it is win-win for me.

[Tonytone]

Killjoy and Juju are Immune to Influence and therefore cannot have Obey cast on them.

Anyone running Hamelin would eat this list for lunch without breaking a sweat.

[Raintar]

Ahh good point, with the Immune to Influence, I missed that.

However IDK about the Haemlin comment, considering he'd probably be the one that would be Voodoo Dolled and targeted by Zoradia. If Haemlin is on the board, I don't know if there is a unit out there that I would rather take out then him. I know what it's like playing against him :X.

[karn987]

1, 2, 3, word vomit! :blah:

Alright, your lists basic over-all meta is that it is a launcher platform. You prime your missiles and then send them off to reek their havoc and death. This is a fine idea but it has the weaknesses of a ranged army mixed with that or a buff first army.

What this means is that your dummy activations are the activations that will do damage and if you prime before the enemy is done with their activations, they know whats coming and can deal with it. An aggressive list will literally run down your throat and smack you upside the head.

Lets go with an example I know so well, Levy, alice, and 4 SPA (yes I know, this is only a 25ss list). The entire list moves up on turn one and will be safe through terrain, etc. There will be no missile turn one unless we are playing on a board with no terrain.

So turn 2, the SPA's hop skip and jump forward their crazy leapfrogged forward their 12" and can then summon to the Desolation Engine another 6". Total threat of 18" just for the summon and then the Engine it's self is reach 2" so really, threat 20" from big bad DE. Yes, this is sacrificing him in the end, but he WILL kill what he is after unless it is the master and judging by how your idea would work, your clustered. He has 1 ap and 1 melee expert to kill his target and do any extra damage he can and then cast Desolate Supplications to ping all your weak spam units. You will probably resist most of them, but if I get one or two of them, its worth it. Then the Engine will probably die, I've had it live before (funny as heck the next turn) but it really should crumble. But bye then the nurse is probably dead along with loco and the rest aren't feeling to good and I now have SPA's in your back line! Levy saunters up, taking his time with Alice and the two of them finish your units off rather easily since none of them except big Z can stand up to either of them. I can also always give a SPA reactivate from Alice and not use the activation until I turn it into the Desolation Engine and then that gets reactivate. So that's what I mean by an aggressive list taking apart your launching platform. Obviously this isn't perfect, nothing ever is, but this is a good example to make my point. This would work with any fast moving, or heavily defensive list that can run ram-shot down your throat.

Either way, I hate arguing this sort of thing. Hopefully you understand what I mean now, I thought you would have already thought of this before. Agressive styles can just simply beat a list like this down through sheer speed and brawn. Heavy armor lists just walk up and giggle as you try in vain to hurt them. Specialist lists just do what they always do, say no and make you listen. Ranged lists just shoot, etc. Its a cool idea, but it is by no means an ultimate list. It will catch people of gaurd the first time if they don't put 2 and 2 together quick enough and it will be an issue for more balanced lists that try to mix ranged and melee. But besides Loco, you have very little that is a real threat to a master unless you can grow a terror tot to a mature quick enough.

So hopefully you take away from this the point Im trying to make, and not focus on the holes Im poking to make the point. Hopefully I made my point well enough as well, not always easy to view it from outside the box ;D

Edited December 29, 2009 by karn987

[Wombats]

Not sure if its been mentioned in the Wall of Text...

Fast only persists for one activation, same for Slow, Paralyze and Reactivate.

It can even carry over game rounds this way.

So the second activation only has 2AP to play with.

Interesting idea, though.

I'd drop the Student of Conflict from the plan - even though you may technically be able to hire and out of faction totem, it seems to run against the spirit of the rules.

[Raintar]

Student of Conflict's assist rule says you gain fast until the end of the closing phase. Although you are probably correct I'm just going by what the rules say. Posting about it in the rules forum.

[TheBugKing]

The Student of Conflict's ability puts an additional limiter on Fast. It does not replace the other rule. If it did the rule would say so. As such, it prevents giving fast to a model that has already activated for the turn and having it do anything.

I'll point a Marshal at this to get the official stamp but this is the way it works.