Sculpting miniatures by lasers?

[Nathan Caroland]

I ran across a thread on Frothers recently and it has been something that was in my mind anyhow and thought I would bring it up here. When I worked in a machine shop they had this very interesting machine which would cut and 'sculpt' your metal for you upon a design that was put into its database and you would get an exact duplicate of whatever was put in.

This is something also that apparently that is being looked into by some larger companies out there in creating a database and laser cutting 'greens' for casting, which potentially, with a bit of work, a large database and damn good concept art, you could cut out a troop of miniatures.

I'm not even sure if this is something realistic, or something that is likely down the road, but I thought I would strike up the conversation as I find it damn interesting from a buisness point of view.

[Frenchkid]

wouldn't minis be too complex for laser sculpting ?

You probably could some stuff with it but I think most humanoid minis would still have to be sculpted by hand. Well that's from what I'v seen of laser sculpting.

the other thing is, even if technically it's possible wouldn't the time taken to draw the 3d concept on the computer be as time consuming as doing a green.

[green stuff]

wouldn't minis be too complex for laser sculpting ?

Not necessarily. Resin vats equiped with lasers to harden designated points in the vat are use by other industries to make protoypes. This would be the "green" that would be used to make the moulds. The hard thing to do would be things liks fur and hair because most 3D resin sculpting software need a unique mesh as the entry data. Usually in 3D hair and fur are done with particle systems and not one big mesh. But nowadays there exists 3D mouses and carving tools in 3D editors so I guess an artist used to this could pull it off. But what strikes me is that in movies like LotR or Star Wars, they first sculpt the creatures and then 3D scan the sculpt to get the 3D data ... I guess it can be done both ways and it just depends on what people like to work with.

even if technically it's possible wouldn't the time taken to draw the 3d concept on the computer be as time consuming as doing a green.

Well first of all, in 3D, you usually just need to define half of the object (you can duplicate the other half). Second of all once you've got a "master mesh", you can easily change the pose of the mesh. Virtually, you could make a whole unit of minis with different poses in about an hour or two once the first mesh is defined. On the other hand, in minis, once you've got 3 or 4 variations in a squad, you don't really need more.

Above all, I think it all depends on the artist. Whatever the tool, if the person has talent and knows his tools, it'll be good.

[Nathan Caroland]

This is more or less what I'm talking about - it might be five to ten years down the road, but if you end up making a whole database of 'meshes' or whatever it is that makes up a miniature, conceivably you could just toss together a miniature in no time. This style hair, this type of armor (with variances), a selection of swords, hilts, handles, weapons of all sorts .. etc. If you've got a large enough database, you could put together an endless amount of 'greens' so to speak and just bash out one after another.

Granted, this is a lot of work up front, but think of the time invested and what you would reap for something like this. Say you hire someone to do three or four months of heavy work like this, day in, day out putting this stuff together. When it comes time for things to go 'live' you can knock out a ton of varient miniatures in little time.

For instance, the Warjacks from Privateer Press, they all have a 'general' look to them. Lets say the shoulders on one of them is consisted of 10 different layers to get a certain look - and you have a little over 100 layers to choose from, making for a LOT of variances but giving you an overall cohesive unit look, or a whole new faction, etc.

Might be a bit laughable now, but give it a few years and a large company with the resources and it might not be that far off.

[EricJ]

I believe this technology has been around for several years at least, I definately remember talking about it in 2001 I believe. I think there are some HUGE hurdles which keep it from being all that useful.

The initial costs are HUGE, I believe these machines alone are 10,000's of $$'s. Then you're needing to hire someone with an advanced degree in art/computers to do the initial designs, which I imagine is FAR more expensive per hour than someone who's turned their sculpting hobby into a way to make some money.

Then the benefits are almost paradoxical with the type of company who would be able to afford to use it. They would be great if you're creating entire LARGE lines of minis with a big customer base already, in order to assure making back the costs. But then companies like this already have most of their line minis already out, and are in many ways already invested in the old ways, as they would already have their entire line in the old type of greens. In other words, in order for a company to grow to the point there it would be practical in one way to use this technology, it would make inpractical in other ways...

I think the only time we'll we'd see this used is if someone who has a machine like this and the skills to use it, currently being used for other reasons, then decides to get into minis and do it on the side since he has the means to without incuring huge additional costs. It could happen, but this technology is relatively rare and has limited uses, so the number of people in that situation is probably tiny.

[green stuff]

For instance, the Warjacks from Privateer Press, they all have a 'general' look to them. Lets say the shoulders on one of them is consisted of 10 different layers to get a certain look - and you have a little over 100 layers to choose from, making for a LOT of variances but giving you an overall cohesive unit look, or a whole new faction, etc.

Funny you mention Warmachine ... Cyril is quite fed up lately by all the "scratches" they've been producing .

I think the big down point of having a database of designs is that you limit yourself to what's in it.

[SteveB]

It's worth noting that GW are already doing the 'lasers into a vat of resin' method of sculpting. Mostly they've been using it to make parts for figures such as chains and the gun for the Rat Ogres. Also the wheels for the new Dwarf Cannon.

Another thing they've been doing is running the plastic mould cutters by computer. Mostly this has involded taking 3d scans of sculptures (the Carnifex was done like this I believe) but they are now experimenting with producing sprues that were never sculpted at all.

The Black Templar vehicle sprue was designed in 3d software and taken straight to moulding. It never existed as a sculpture. And it's pretty impressive. The 3d scanned figures have been a little dissapointing as the finished results are a bit soft. The Carnifex is a good example of this. Nice fig but the finish is not sharp. But the detail on the Black Templar Vehicle sprue is razor sharp and the detailing incredibly fine.

Be interesting to see where this all heads but I'd hate to see traditional sculpting die out. Especially as I'm a sculptor and don't really want to go virtual...

But, frankly, the technology is getting better all the time. I do not think that GW will be waiting too long to produce their first completely cg-designed miniatures of a human or humanlike style.

Might be a while before other manufacturers catch up though...

Steve B

[green stuff]

I do not think that GW will be waiting too long to produce their first completely cg-designed miniatures of a human or humanlike style.

I saw 2 years ago at the french GD a picture of a CG space marine ... looked like crap, but I guess they're continuing to experiment.

[Spacemunkie]

The technology is improving. It's just a matter of time until rapid prototyping can produce 28mm scale minis accurately.

You can get a RP done for around $100. All you need is your 3D wireframe, so companies wouldn't necessarily need to invest in the tech. Employing 3D artists doesn't cost that much, and there's going to be a lot of people with these sorts of skills entering the labour market over the next few years - I've seen at least 5 of my students go into 3D graphics in the last couple of years.

The computer games industry is rife with talent and could easily be plundered. 3D printing is on its way too, so be prepared for some serious pre-painted minis in the future!

GW already has this tech and when they realise how useful it is, I'm sure they'll be using it. A lot. Personally I can't wait. I think it'll open up the way for some fantastic minis.

[vincegamer]

One advantage I see is with motion modeling.

Someone mentioned that the LOTR movie monsters were done in sculpts then photographed to produce the digital image.

Then the image is moved via motion software.

Anyway, you could have someon sculpt a figure, then scan it in and use the software to change its pose or equipment.

Ral Partha used to do lots of minis where the lower half was the same but the head or equipment was different. These were single piece metal minis so I assume the original was cut and modified and a new one cast just to save time.

With the computers you could easily do this if the sculpting end pans out. Plus for all those sets that come with both on-foot and mounted versions of the same guy, it would be easy enough to reposition the scan from one original sculpt.

[Ritual]

I really don't think companies need to employ people with advanced design degrees to pull this sort of thing off. There's plenty of people out there with lots of skills in 3D modelling who have taught themselves on pirate software...

[Spacemunkie]

I really don't think companies need to employ people with advanced design degrees to pull this sort of thing off. There's plenty of people out there with lots of skills in 3D modelling who have taught themselves on pirate software...

Hmmm. Dunno about that. There are some pretty specialised courses out there now, and graduate labour in this country is dirt cheap....

[green stuff]

Ral Partha used to do lots of minis where the lower half was the same but the head or equipment was different.

Those are called "scratches" and not everybody appreciates them. Their main grief is that in the end it's boring and kills creativity.

There's plenty of people out there with lots of skills in 3D modelling who have taught themselves on pirate software...

Who needs pirate software? Blender is a complete and free 3D editor that exports a file format compatible with 3D resin vat prototype laser sculpting machines (anybody know what the real name of that thing is?).

[Patrick]

Here's an article that was posted over at 1Listsculpting

http://www.mcadonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=116&Itemid=73

The first project completed with Delcam software was the Tyranid Carnifex, a highly detailed “living engine of destruction”. The resulting model was rated as “one of the best ever done” by White Dwarf, the magazine devoted to the hobby.

WHAT!?! If that isn't the most arrogant self-stroking GW has done! It would be more convincing had Harbinger or even Dragon had said that, but to issue that as a quote from an in-house publication. Poor taste.

With a minimum of 60 new tools manufactured each year for new models, and the average number produced each year nearer to 100 moulds, the overall savings will be massive.

But don't expect them to pass that savings on to the customers. That would only be proven by releasing a plastic Thunderhawk Gunship model that retailed for the price that the same sized Revell/Mongram aircraft kits run for. Never....

But - lets not foucs on the bashing. Kudos to them for using their resources to impliment new technology to increase quality and productivity. Somebody's gotta be the top dog.

[green stuff]

Tyranid Carnifex

Hum ... I feel a bit clueless about this. The Carnifex was first sculpted in green stuff (I saw it last year at the french GD and then at the UK GD) ... how does 3D technology make GW win time with that???

@Patrick : just in case, this is an open question to the article you pointed out. I'm not trying to bash you .

[SteveB]

Yeah, the Carnifex was sulpted green first. I think it was 3d scanned into the Cadcam system. The other possibility is that the pieces were rebuilt on the computer using the green as reference but I think it's the former.

Certainly I've heard the Black Templar Vehicle Sprue was the first fully virtual sculpt...

Steve B

[Frenchkid]

Well if it is doable and gives us cooler minis for cheaper, I'm ll for it

That thing with mesh got me thinking. Could be cool to designe your own minis on the net or somthing like that. Go on the net to a database, assemble de mini how you want it from the existing meshes, and the a couple weeks later get it in the mailbox Might be the futur of minis, Limited editions of 1

[Nathan Caroland]

Quite the possibility, though I imagine it would be a good deal expensive too. But like everything, progress and use of this type of technology will make things cheaper and easier in the future as more and more folks jump on board .... should it ever happen of course.

[Patrick]

@green stuff - no bashing suspected

The process for producing plastic sprues is vastly different and much more costly than pressing vulcan spin molds. From what I understand of the process, steel molds are necessary for injecting molten plastics. The molds have to be cut with a tiny router bit, gouging out the cavity from a solid block of metal. This used to be done by hand with a "pantograph" aparatus. The master model would be sprued up as a pattern and "traced" at one end, and at the other the pantograph cutting arm would drill into the steel mold blank carving out a reverse 1/3rd the size of the original. There is a very old White Dwarf issue I have that covers this process for the Eldar Falcon Grav Tank.

This process is also utilized to cut custom aluminum wheel rims for vehicles.

Now with computer technology, yes - master patterns can be digitally scanned, cleaned up, manipulated or added to and then loaded into the robotically controlled pantograph cutter. This also allows models to be created in 3D programs like AutoCAD, or likely Maya, and imported into the steel cutting machine. Rather than having a master mold cutter actually operating the router machine by hand, it is now possible to have the mold cutting machine run 24hrs a day. That would save them money because they don't have to keep some old coot slaving over the machine.

Here is another fun article about the process:

http://www.uaw.org/publications/skill/01/1/skill02_2.html

There was also a garage kit guy who was planning on putting out a kit based on one of his 3D character designs. The company he mentioned was Art to Part:

http://www.atpdev.com/

[Spacemunkie]

The guy at the following site has been using RPT for a while now. Loads of cool stuff, and a hint of the future of miniatures, action figures and toys (amongst a great many other things) I reckon:

http://www.southerngfx.co.uk/information.htm

The guy knocked this up in three hours...

http://www.southerngfx.co.uk/graphics/gfx1a/gfx-zbrush26/img9.htm