Malifaux World Cup 2024 - 8/9th June, Element Games, Stockport Uk

[ScottishMetaLew]

After an extremely successful debut in 2023, the MWC returns in 2024. Same venue as last year Element Games 1, Hallam Business Centre, Hallam St, Stockport SK2 6PT.

 

The competition will take the same format as last year and be a Swiss tournament using teams of 4. There will be room for 32 teams and initially the UK places will be capped at 12 teams to allow travelling teams to not miss spaces.

A full rules pack will be issued shortly.

Tickets are available via PayPal at scottishmetaevents@gmail.com and cost £160 for the team.

Teams signed up:

1. Team Scotland 1

2. Team Scotland 2

[ScottishMetaLew]

And just to get the hype train started for 2024, we're revealing 3 fate deck artworks off the bat

[Luděk Černý]

Consider these changes for next year please, we would love to attend, but there was couple of mistakes this year:

1, Different pairing system, 5 players per team are much better. One team chooses 3 of 4 tables, when there are 4 players in team. Big advantage for one team.

2, Clock! Ending in third or even second round is VERY bad for game itself.

3, Schedule was very, very tight. Without lunch even worse.

One of our players did a very good breakdown with some feedback, please listen to it:

.

[ScottishMetaLew]

Hi mate, thanks for the feed back, some counter points to consider though.

1.Teams of 5 are harder to organise and a new pairing system will be in place this year.

2. Your player that has gave the breakdown of the event, made public that your team strategy at the event was to deliberately play only 3 turns and try and win tight games. I've got the screenshots of him admitting so if you want me to send them across happy to do so, as such this will also be addressed in the player pack.

3. As explained at the venue, there was a miscommunication between the TO team and the venue regarding lunches. Don't know how many times I had to repeat this over the weekend but completely out of our control.

 

 

[Luděk Černý]

1, glad to hear it!

2, there is misunderstanding, it was not our team strategy, I ended all of my games in turn 5. We REALLY want to play with clocks. We talked about clocks with all other teams we played against and EVERYONE assumed it would be better to play with clocks. We were wery unhappy when we realized few days before event there would be no clocks. Our player, Simon, is not the fastest player so he decide he want to play three well played rounds over five very harsh and bad played rounds. We are used to play with clocks with 1:15 hour per player. This was not possible with your schedule.

3, Lunch was not your mistake, but you should change schedule based on this change.

[Draysen]

I'd like to see those screenshots please, because while I many times said that we don't EXPECT to see turn 4/5, because of the terrible schedule/lack of clocks, I'm pretty confident I never said we PLANNED not to, since that wasn't the case. 

Have seen them now, thanks. They do not show any deliberate slow play at all, that's just a bad interpretation.

[ScottishMetaLew]

Moved this conversation to DM as to not disrupt the thread

[KlausFischer]

Why don't you simply get rid of all these issues by adding the chess clock to your rules? Most competitive tournaments have it, so I don't see a reason why the tournament that aims to be a world cup would not have a clock.

[ikildkenny]

20 hours ago, ScottishMetaLew said:

1.Teams of 5 are harder to organise and a new pairing system will be in place this year.

2. Your player that has gave the breakdown of the event, made public that your team strategy at the event was to deliberately play only 3 turns and try and win tight games. I've got the screenshots of him admitting so if you want me to send them across happy to do so, as such this will also be addressed in the player pack.

3. As explained at the venue, there was a miscommunication between the TO team and the venue regarding lunches. Don't know how many times I had to repeat this over the weekend but completely out of our control.

 

 

(made an account just to chime in....)

1) glad to hear you are changing the pairing system ... though teams of 3 would make that part or your life easier, reduce the chance or draws (and the subsequent abuse of that we've seen this year ... ... ...) and more importantly would enable more teams at the event, which just makes the whole thing more interesting.

2) ok ... realtalk ... regardless whether these screenshots exist or not BUT... if you have a system that can be abused in that manner, your first reaction should be "well maybe the system is not that good" and not "we found a roundabout way for this system to be slightly less abusable". It's less about "fairness" per se, it is mostly about avoiding (allegedly) bad actors creating negative play experiences at the event itself and ruining the awesome vibes.
I know that getting your hands on the necessary number of chessclocks is a big ask, just from a purely logistical standpoint. You do have a community around you though (*looks at the WM and (former) GB community*) so that could help.
And I also have the suspicion, that chessclocks haven't quite made it "over the channel" at this point in time, but I STRONGLY urge you to give it a shot. I know it is a feelable change to how the game is played and it does slightly shift the meta but it nevertheless at the very least makes games "feel" more fair then without.

3) I feel you bro ... been there, cursed that... depending on the number of attendees you might be able to haggle for some advantageous considerations on the side of the venue.

As you might notice, my feedback is less a "what you did / plan to do is bad just caus" it is more a "look, this was great, it does open up some routes to abuse though that you did not forsee last time that are evident now". I have my fair share of experience on both sides of the registration list, so this comes from a place of experience and not salt or anything negative. We all want this event to turn out great and more importantly to have players look back at see the cool time they had and not the sorespots that stuck out. I also do realize, that sometimes we as TOs tend to be a bit stubborn regarding our ideas, but never forget, you are doing this not for the exploration of your cool ideas, but for the enjoyment of your (paying!) guests ;).

But to not just be contrarian - I do have some additional suggestions aswell:

A) Encounters - please publizise them like (half) a month in advance. Yes, Malifaux is a game of "bring all you want, react well to the challange presented and do your best", but given that a significant number of teams will have to take flights, space for mini-packing is an issue. e.g. I own the whole Neverborn faction (and for the flex have taken them to events just caus) but I do have to somewhat carefully consider my luggage and therefore the minis I bring and still leave some space for my undies in my suitcase. Knowing what to "prep" for and testing some encounters would give ppl an informed decision point regarding "tech piece A or B" etc.

B) Strenght of Scedule - another one of those "continental oddities" we here use as a first tiebreaker. There are good arguments for either "individual wins", "MOV" and "SOS" as tiebreakers, but I will focus on SOS for the sake of space (this post is a monster already). The short version: SOS rewards you for playing against strong teams, Individual wins rewards you for beating weak teams.
Again - this is more to make the event "feel" more rewarding then punishing, regardless of how you did in the end. Apart from the top3, noone really cares about how well or badly they did, but knowing that you were at least "not punished" for having been paired against the winner of the event (but in fact rewarded) gives better vibes. As an added bonus, it makes the "final table" more likely to result in "winner and runner up", which is somewhat what you want for this event. Finally, it does curtail "we do a draw" abuses that became infamous caus it does incentivise trying to not draw ;).

Again, none of these are "do this or you do bad event" type suggestions, this are all just the results of 2 decades of TOing in multiple systems and are solely focussed on making the end result feel more awesome for everyone (and yes ... curtail abuse as much as possible). If you want to pick my brain, feel free to hit me up via DM or discord - happy to chat!

[ikildkenny]

Hey @ScottishMetaLew!

I'm a bit surprised you didn't feel the need to take some time out of your weekend to address anything above. I would have hoped that you guys are open for constructive criticism or at the very least have some thoughts besides the implyed "don't like it don't come" ...

[Insomniakwulf]

So heres a few of my thoughts.

Teams of 4 makes the most sense based on one of each strat and deployment each round and the space restrictions of the venue especially in terms of how the venue is laid out, more or less would result in teams being split onto multiple rows 

In terms of encounters in advance, you know every strat and scheme appears in every round, honestly i thought it was nice to get the whole weekends pools at the start, in previous team events ive been in you got the pools 15 minutes before each round, i personally like that there is no element of who has been able to practice a specific pool the most.

Bag o tools will be used over longshanks as the people running the event are the people that are responsoble for bag o tools existing in the first place.

The TOs did get feedback from participants at the end of the last event and there was less requests for playing with clocks than there was people happy to not play with clocks. I would be interested to know how many people wont participate without clocks vs wont participate with clocks, as im personally in the latter even as a fast player that regularly finishes with 30+ minutes to spare i wont spend large amounts to travel and play the game in a format i dont enjoy.

Sportsmanship was abused in a couple of ways at the last event and the TOs have confirmed that both of them will be addressed for next time around.

Honestly the TOs have laid out how the event is going to be ran, and highlighted the changes that are being made from last year, whilst i understand the desire to provide constructive criticism im not sure that consistently rehashing the same things after it has been confirmed that the matters in question are closed (ie, no clocks, no SoS) is for the best as it will undoubtedly lead to a loss of enthusiasm on both the parts of the organisation team and potential participants.

[ScottishMetaLew]

I personally haven't answered due to it being the last weekend before my kids go back to school after summer holidays so have been otherwise indisposed.

The above post has covered the SoS thing, the TO team created Bag o Tools, there's no way in hell we won't use it over the visual vomit that is Longshanks.

Encounters in advance is an odd request, you know which games your faction is best at and the team format allows for that. I'd understand if we said only 2 or 3 pools were being used but yeah, every strat and every deployment appears every round. It's easier to plan for that then blind.

Again the above post by Reice has hit the nail on the head regarding team size.

 

I appreciate any and all feedback folk want to give however and will take opinions on board

[ikildkenny]

Just out of curiousity - what exactly makes Longshanks a necessity with regards of SoS? Would some coding in Bag o Tools not make it perfectly capable of covering that variant? I was honestly convinced that that would be the smallest issue.

And I do see, that from an esthetics standpoint, Teams of 4 do have their appeal. But shouldn't an event that strives for the highest level of competitive play prioritize the reduction of ways for abuse and fairness over simple esthetics?

Regarding the pre-publication of pools, there is the added factor of time during the round. Teams having the opportunity to discuss how to approach each round and "pre assign" some encounters will make the procedure at the table quicker and (assuming chessclocks are still out of the question) reduce the amount of uncompleted games. Obviously this is not necessary by any means, I just want to stress the level of competition you strive for and the evident advantage you assign to ppl being in a logistical position to bring a larger bench.

 

Oh, and all the best and have fun for your kids!

[Reedo]

Saying that after last year's event (which was without chess clock) more people were in favour of no clock is like saying that the majority of people on a trump rally is in favour of the republicans. I know people who have decided not to go to the event because they didn't like the rules. 

There are no sane arguments against chess clock and I have not been to a single tournament with clocks where anyone had anything to complain. 

[Insomniakwulf]

Well alot of people didnt realise there was no clocks until a few days before the event as they assumed there would be clocks despite there being zero reference to clocks in any of the material, i also know that there were some players that refused to take part because multi masters werent allowed, just as there would be players that would refuse to take part if multi masters were allowed

Any information gathered after an event is likely to be skewed towards that event, but from the admittedly small sampling of a clocked event i have previously ran, there was several players that wouldnt attend clocked events in the future, and none that wouldnt attend non clocked events.

Realistically there won't be a player pack everyone is happy with, yes some people want to play on clocks, that's their preference, but the tournament organiser has made it clear that this event will not be using clocks, if players arent willing to play without clocks, or multi masters this event isnt an event that they are willing to play in.

 

[ikildkenny]

The fact that a notable number of ppl assumed clocks at the world cup and where surprised there weren't, in fact they expected it should tell you something.

And let's be franc - this is not about what makes players happy (well ... primarily) but what tournament pack creates the fairest and most skill focussed enviroment. In other words, what format would make this event worthy of the title "world cup", since that is the bar the TO has set for themselves. The Rulespack as it was allowed for too much abuse by bad actors, and this was (from what I've heard) not only pointed out beforehand but was very evident afterwards. This discussion wouldn't happen if this wasn't the case.

If the new rulespack reliably fixes these issues, then fair enough. Though honestly, I do have my doubts (or rather - my imagination is not good enough to find a satisfying way out of this). 4 Players in individual wins will make "that draw" possible, one would just have to "hide" it better. No chessclock does enable slowplay and diffenciating malicious slowplay (which is what would have to be done...) from genuine "I had to think a lot in this game" is basically impossible.

Again, I look forward to the ruleset and I am very eager to have my mind changed, I just don't see an elegant way out of the issues that were present last year other then some radical changes as of now.

[KlausFischer]

We're wasting our time here, guys. They want to do it their way, there is no point in presenting reasonable arguments. And that's fine, it's their event. Just vote with your feet.

[Saviouress]

Just a bit disappointing.
I didn't attend the last one, because I'm painting too slowly and didn't feel my standard of play was up for a World Cup.

Then I heard about the tournament and hoped surely the very valid points of constructive criticism about team sizes and chess clocks would be addressed and releasing the pools beforehand.

I'm still cautiously optimistic for the rule pack. If they are a carbon copy of this year I can only interpret that as not wanting international guests and I would be very hard pressed to call this a competitive event.

Maybe the year after that :)

[raderk]

4 hours ago, Insomniakwulf said:

Sportsmanship was abused in a couple of ways at the last event and the TOs have confirmed that both of them will be addressed for next time around.

Can you elaborate what was the sportsmanship abuse?

[Edek]

4 hours ago, ScottishMetaLew said:

The above post has covered the SoS thing, the TO team created Bag o Tools, there's no way in hell we won't use it over the visual vomit that is Longshanks.

All things aside, calling a greatly developed and loved by many, many people software a 'visual vomit' is just uncalled for. 

[celary]

Hi, all!

Regarding the superiority of Bag of Tools over Longshanks, the latter has become a de facto standard for Malifaux. It's your event, you're free to use any software you like (if any!) to run it, but it would be greatly appreciated if you could input the results of a literal World Cup into the global rankings.

 

[Zły]

5 hours ago, ScottishMetaLew said:

 

The above post has covered the SoS thing, the TO team created Bag o Tools, there's no way in hell we won't use it over the visual vomit that is Longshanks.

Let's not go that road of offending another app just because you don't like its aesthetics or someone might start writing that at least LS doesn't crash every other round and it will go ugly from there. 

[Zły]

Also reading this thread I have a strong feeling that TO is making everything to convince folks to NOT attend. At least those that have to travel from outside of the UK. 

[ScottishMetaLew]

4 hours ago, Saviouress said:

Just a bit disappointing.
I didn't attend the last one, because I'm painting too slowly and didn't feel my standard of play was up for a World Cup.

Then I heard about the tournament and hoped surely the very valid points of constructive criticism about team sizes and chess clocks would be addressed and releasing the pools beforehand.

I'm still cautiously optimistic for the rule pack. If they are a carbon copy of this year I can only interpret that as not wanting international guests and I would be very hard pressed to call this a competitive event.

Maybe the year after that

The rules pack isn't a carbon copy of last year's as there have been a few changes and clarifications across it.

 

5 hours ago, ikildkenny said:

The fact that a notable number of ppl assumed clocks at the world cup and where surprised there weren't, in fact they expected it should tell you something.

And let's be franc - this is not about what makes players happy (well ... primarily) but what tournament pack creates the fairest and most skill focussed enviroment. In other words, what format would make this event worthy of the title "world cup", since that is the bar the TO has set for themselves. The Rulespack as it was allowed for too much abuse by bad actors, and this was (from what I've heard) not only pointed out beforehand but was very evident afterwards. This discussion wouldn't happen if this wasn't the case.

If the new rulespack reliably fixes these issues, then fair enough. Though honestly, I do have my doubts (or rather - my imagination is not good enough to find a satisfying way out of this). 4 Players in individual wins will make "that draw" possible, one would just have to "hide" it better. No chessclock does enable slowplay and diffenciating malicious slowplay (which is what would have to be done...) from genuine "I had to think a lot in this game" is basically impossible.

Again, I look forward to the ruleset and I am very eager to have my mind changed, I just don't see an elegant way out of the issues that were present last year other then some radical changes as of now.

Of all the teams I spoke to, only 3 had issue with the clock situation before the event. So of 20 teams 3 were surprised there wasn't any, of the other non UK teams their players have played in enough UK events that I believe they are used to no clocks and the other team stated they'd rather not have them. So it wasn't the majority expected them at all.

 

3 hours ago, Zły said:

Let's not go that road of offending another app just because you don't like its aesthetics or someone might start writing that at least LS doesn't crash every other round and it will go ugly from there. 

You're right, I spoke out if turn due to other RL frustrations. And was wrong to do so

 

5 hours ago, KlausFischer said:

We're wasting our time here, guys. They want to do it their way, there is no point in presenting reasonable arguments. And that's fine, it's their event. Just vote with your feet.

I respect the clock argument, I personally don't believe they're needed however I'm always listening to feedback. What Im curious about are the other suggestions though. Teams of 3 is not only a nightmare for the venue layout, it doesn't divide nicely into the max capacity of the venue meaning we're more likely to have a bye and odd teams. It also creates more work on the game front as we have to balance each strat, scheme and deployment across the rounds rather then just being able to include each one. Releasing the pools before hand is something else we have considered but also have to weigh up that we'd rather people got the games fresh so they're not practiced and game list management is another skill displayed. Also regarding draws there were 6 draws across 54 games at the last world cup so teams of 4 didn't really impact the amount of draws

 

I hope this clears up a few of the viewpoints on our end

[ikildkenny]

Guys, again, it's not about what is "preferred" or "nice" or "fits the layout of the venue".

You write "World Cup" on the tin, this infers a certain standard of competitiveness and more importantly curtailing of alleys of abuse by bad actors.

All you have provided so far, and I am very sad to say so, are excuses on why you don't want to address the issues mentioned. And that is everything but the basis for and event calling itself the "World Cup".

And before the N-th person posts "this is their tournament, they can make the rules how they want..." - you know what? No!

World Cup not only implies a certain level of play and a certain level of competitiveness but also some "meeting in the middle" with the wants, needs and expectations of the worldwide playerbase (ok, likely europe-based in this cas)... you know ... caus "World Cup"

As mean as this will sound, but any address of any critique/feedback/suggestion you have provided so far boils down to "I don't like it so I'll ignore it", nothing in here even approaches an honest engagement with the points presented.