Couple of questions about Jakob Lynch 1 and 2

[Arko]

Hello, a friend of mine wants to start the game and is very interested in Jakob Lynch 1 and 2, and he would want to know more about them :

- Does he have any core minis that will be in his crew all the time (or most of the time), no matter the Strategies? If yes, which ones?

- What are the boxes that he should buy after the "Lynch core box" and "Bargins Made"?

- Does he have to hire any ten thunders versatile to stay competitive? (He wants to visually keep the "Victorian english" Lynch theme, as the Asian theme from ten thunders won't fit at all visually speaking).

 

Thanks !

[Maniacal_cackle]

Kunoichi seems to be the universal model people grab into competitive Lynch 2 crews. The ability to focus up Hungering Darkness twice is huge, as it unlocks those severes of up to 8 damage.

Personally I'd be very keen to try out Terracotta Warriors since I like the card draw and Take the Hit is nice for Mr. Tannen... But you can just slap an upgrade on an illuminated to protect him. I also ran a list today with Bill Algren which was quite effective, but it was a matchup where ruthless mattered.

I'm no expert though!

Also worth noting that for Malifaux, you're generally looking for just a few boxes for casual play, but for absolute top-tier competitive play you sometimes need some tech picks from across the faction (the Bill example above being a good example).

[Arko]

Alright, so no Jakob for him then, thank you !

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, Arko said:

Alright, so no Jakob for him then, thank you !

Oh do note that the crew can do just fine in keyword, I think! Most crews can do just fine in keyword in casual play, and in Malifaux skill dominates by quite a big margin.

In top-tier competitive play, there's very few crews where you wouldn't want some pieces from out of the keyword.

[TeddyBear]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Kunoichi seems to be the universal model people grab into competitive Lynch 2 crews. The ability to focus up Hungering Darkness twice is huge, as it unlocks those severes of up to 8 damage.

Personally I'd be very keen to try out Terracotta Warriors since I like the card draw and Take the Hit is nice for Mr. Tannen... But you can just slap an upgrade on an illuminated to protect him. I also ran a list today with Bill Algren which was quite effective, but it was a matchup where ruthless mattered.

I'm no expert though!

Also worth noting that for Malifaux, you're generally looking for just a few boxes for casual play, but for absolute top-tier competitive play you sometimes need some tech picks from across the faction (the Bill example above being a good example).

@Maniacal_cackle could I ask you please, how does Kunoichi work and also Bill?

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 minutes ago, TeddyBear said:

@Maniacal_cackle could I ask you please, how does Kunoichi work and also Bill?

Kunoichi you use tools for the job to discard a mask (which you will probably have cuz rig the deck), then you attack a friendly incorp model for mask trigger doing 0 damage and gaining focus.

Bill is just a beater with a good kit.

I punched Hanged a lot and stoned for crit strike a lot, and then all his Hanged were dead xD

[regleant]

I am going to give a different perspective. I don't compete in national tournaments, and rarely have taken Out of Keyword models. They just aren't necessary. That said, VERSATILE models is where Ten Thunders excels. And these will hold up regardless of which Master you run. Dawn Serpent, Fuhatsu, and Samurai are my top 3. That said....

 

In keyword,

• I like the Beckoners because Lure is awesome. Lure is able to deny your opponents points by walking them away from strategy and scheme markers, and enable your own scoring for the same reason. 
• Illuminated are some of the best all-round beaters we have in the entire faction. It is one of the few models where I would say that running 3 makes sense.
• Kitty is a great model, very versatile in her kit, highly mobile, and surprisingly able to put out damage when needed.

 

While I own Mr Tannen and Graves, I've never used them. Gwyneth has an interesting kit, but I personally haven't been able to make her click, yet.

 

Oh, and don't put all your eggs into the Brilliance bucket.  It's an interesting mechanic, but doubling down on it will eat a lot of activations and accomplish very little on the board. 

 

Hope that helps.

[Arko]

59 minutes ago, regleant said:

I am going to give a different perspective. I don't compete in national tournaments, and rarely have taken Out of Keyword models. They just aren't necessary. That said, VERSATILE models is where Ten Thunders excels. And these will hold up regardless of which Master you run. Dawn Serpent, Fuhatsu, and Samurai are my top 3. That said....

 

In keyword,

• I like the Beckoners because Lure is awesome. Lure is able to deny your opponents points by walking them away from strategy and scheme markers, and enable your own scoring for the same reason. 
• Illuminated are some of the best all-round beaters we have in the entire faction. It is one of the few models where I would say that running 3 makes sense.
• Kitty is a great model, very versatile in her kit, highly mobile, and surprisingly able to put out damage when needed.

 

While I own Mr Tannen and Graves, I've never used them. Gwyneth has an interesting kit, but I personally haven't been able to make her click, yet.

 

Oh, and don't put all your eggs into the Brilliance bucket.  It's an interesting mechanic, but doubling down on it will eat a lot of activations and accomplish very little on the board. 

 

Hope that helps.

Hello, thank you for your answer!

As my friend is still hesitating on which Master to play, i am going to ask you a few more questions if you don't mind :

- Why are you not playing Graves and Tannen?

- Which versatiles do you think are absolutely necessary to make Lynch work?

 

6 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Kunoichi seems to be the universal model people grab into competitive Lynch 2 crews. The ability to focus up Hungering Darkness twice is huge, as it unlocks those severes of up to 8 damage.

Personally I'd be very keen to try out Terracotta Warriors since I like the card draw and Take the Hit is nice for Mr. Tannen... But you can just slap an upgrade on an illuminated to protect him. I also ran a list today with Bill Algren which was quite effective, but it was a matchup where ruthless mattered.

I'm no expert though!

Also worth noting that for Malifaux, you're generally looking for just a few boxes for casual play, but for absolute top-tier competitive play you sometimes need some tech picks from across the faction (the Bill example above being a good example).

I just realised that besides Kunoichi, you didn't really mention any "auto-include" versatile or OOK for Lynch, because my friend just told me that one Kunoichi will be ok in the crew, he just doesn't want to put too many versatiles and/or OOK in his crew, but one or maybe 2 at worst is ok though.

So I will ask you the same question than @regleant : Which versatiles do you think are absolutely necessary to make Lynch work?

 

EDIT :

Here is an example of what my friend would like to play :

3 Soulstone left

Lynch 1 or 2

Hungering Darkness

Tannen

Graves

Kitty

Illuminated 1 or Kunoichi

Illuminated 2

Beckoner 1

Beckoner 2

 

Could it work generally speaking?

[regleant]

1 hour ago, Arko said:

- Why are you not playing Graves and Tannen?

- Which versatiles do you think are absolutely necessary to make Lynch work?

My personal playstyle is one that tries to take advantage of Scoring situations, my personal safety be damned. I've won most of my games with fewer models than my opponent at the end. As such, I look for mobility, durability, and dropping scheme markers. If I am going to bring a beater to the table (which I often do), it has to have other abilities to be worthwhile.

Mr. Graves does come with Hard to Kill, which is an amazing ability, but no healing. At 8 points, he's easy to get bogged down, and doesn't feel as impactful as other 8 (or 9) point options. Also, no ranged and no real threat extension. BUT if I expected to see Terrifying models, he would absolutely go into the list as Ruthless is amazing. Min 3 damage is also a great floor.

Mr. Tannen is a finicky tech piece. Boring Conversation is situationally great if he can get himself mixed up with a bunch of opposing models just to force them to flip cards. But beyond that, I personally don't feel that he brings anything to the table. He was also errata'd not too long ago which brought him down.

If I were only to ever take one Versatile model, it will always be Dawn Serpent. Flight, Agile, and MV 7 means he will always get to where he needs to be. Hard to Kill and Rising Dawn means that it takes significant amount of dedicated effort by the opponent to kill it, meaning they will spend an inordinate amount of activations or simply ignore it. And in a pinch, the damage track isn't too bad, but he's not there as a beater. Counterpsell and the ranged options are both just icing. And this is not specific to Lynch. I would have the same strategy, regardless of the Master. 

 

1 hour ago, Arko said:

3 Soulstone left

Lynch 1 or 2

Hungering Darkness

Tannen

Graves

Kitty

Illuminated 1 or Kunoichi

Illuminated 2

Beckoner 1

Beckoner 2

 

Could it work generally speaking?

I have a Soulstone addiction. I wouldn't run fewer than 4, and if I have 3 models that use Soulstones (as you do in this list), I would try to run at least 6. Also, at least theoretically, Lynch2 brings more of a durable "beat face" strategy which would require a slightly different list, but doesn't matter as much in this case.

I personally have built the following list, but as my gaming group moved on to playing Magic instead of Miniatures, haven't had an opportunity to play it out. This was also before the latest Gaining Grounds, which may change up some of the models I want to take:

• Lynch2
• Hungering Darkness
• Kitty
• Illuminated x3
• Beckoner
• Dawn Serpent
• 6 Soulstones

 

[Arko]

1 hour ago, regleant said:

My personal playstyle is one that tries to take advantage of Scoring situations, my personal safety be damned. I've won most of my games with fewer models than my opponent at the end. As such, I look for mobility, durability, and dropping scheme markers. If I am going to bring a beater to the table (which I often do), it has to have other abilities to be worthwhile.

Mr. Graves does come with Hard to Kill, which is an amazing ability, but no healing. At 8 points, he's easy to get bogged down, and doesn't feel as impactful as other 8 (or 9) point options. Also, no ranged and no real threat extension. BUT if I expected to see Terrifying models, he would absolutely go into the list as Ruthless is amazing. Min 3 damage is also a great floor.

Mr. Tannen is a finicky tech piece. Boring Conversation is situationally great if he can get himself mixed up with a bunch of opposing models just to force them to flip cards. But beyond that, I personally don't feel that he brings anything to the table. He was also errata'd not too long ago which brought him down.

If I were only to ever take one Versatile model, it will always be Dawn Serpent. Flight, Agile, and MV 7 means he will always get to where he needs to be. Hard to Kill and Rising Dawn means that it takes significant amount of dedicated effort by the opponent to kill it, meaning they will spend an inordinate amount of activations or simply ignore it. And in a pinch, the damage track isn't too bad, but he's not there as a beater. Counterpsell and the ranged options are both just icing. And this is not specific to Lynch. I would have the same strategy, regardless of the Master. 

 

I have a Soulstone addiction. I wouldn't run fewer than 4, and if I have 3 models that use Soulstones (as you do in this list), I would try to run at least 6. Also, at least theoretically, Lynch2 brings more of a durable "beat face" strategy which would require a slightly different list, but doesn't matter as much in this case.

I personally have built the following list, but as my gaming group moved on to playing Magic instead of Miniatures, haven't had an opportunity to play it out. This was also before the latest Gaining Grounds, which may change up some of the models I want to take:

• Lynch2
• Hungering Darkness
• Kitty
• Illuminated x3
• Beckoner
• Dawn Serpent
• 6 Soulstones

 

Nice, thanks, so it is totally playable with only one versatile, that will please my friend.

[regleant]

26 minutes ago, Arko said:

Nice, thanks, so it is totally playable with only one versatile, that will please my friend.

Honestly, my first purchases for Ten Thunders were a bucket of Versatile models: Fuhatsu, Samurai, Dawn Serpent, Yasunori (who I do not recommend now), Emissary, and Tanuki. Shortly thereafter I picked up Wanyudo and lastly Lone Swordsman. These were the core of my lists for a long time, often running 2-3 Versatiles and choosing the Master based on which flavor I wanted to run that day. It provides a safe set of core purchases and more mileage out of purchases.

 

But everyone has their own play style, preferred aesthetic, and reasons for choosing particular masters. What I did may not work for your friend (or anyone else), but it did work for me. In the case of Dawn Serpent with Lynch, it gives another scheming model so that Kitty isn't expected to do all of the work.

 

Anyway, I've rambled quite a bit. I'm sure others have their own perspectives as well. Also if it helps, I think Lynch2 is stronger than Lynch1, and may be easier to start with. Good luck!

[Arko]

Yeah, the problem of my friend is that he doesn't like at all the asian theme in ten thunders...but he loves the theme of Lynch, who was apaprently in Neverborn before. Plus, people here told me to pick a faction over a Master, as we will definitely need more than one Master in the long term etc...so I guess that ten thunders will be a no-no for my friend despite his love for Lynch

Thanks for the advices !

[Adran]

9 minutes ago, Arko said:

Yeah, the problem of my friend is that he doesn't like at all the asian theme in ten thunders...but he loves the theme of Lynch, who was apaprently in Neverborn before. Plus, people here told me to pick a faction over a Master, as we will definitely need more than one Master in the long term etc...so I guess that ten thunders will be a no-no for my friend despite his love for Lynch

Thanks for the advices !

Malifaux has 2 extremes on list construction, you can either get good with 1 exact list and use it for everything or you can get good with all possible options and hire the " perfect" list for the exact game. Most people fall somewhere In the middle, as its hard to make 1 "perfect" list to handle everything, and its hard to fully understand the 150+ models that you could use, so the suggestion that you want to learn 2-3 masters is somewhere in the middle. It's not true for every one, but it is true for most people.

It's probably true that if your friend wants to win events then he will do best if he knows how to use 2 or 3 masters, but there are plenty of instances of people winning events with just the 1 master, or even occasionally the 1 list. ( although most cases the person owns more masters in that faction). 

( tldr, it's true for most people, but everyone is different). 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Yesterday I played someone else's list with a bunch of OOK models and the whole time I was wishing for more keyword 🤣

The keyword is strong for sure!

Some extra thoughts on it.

I think Mr Tannen is very strong, but needs take the hit models to survive. Either illuminated with the upgrade, or Terracotta.

Mr Graves, most people I know don't like him at all.

Beckoners.... suffer from the cheap minion problem a bit. In general cheap models that can be one or two shot aren't great. But they're pretty decent and stopping interacts can be huge.

[Arko]

@Adran : What you say about getting one list and do everything with it is really interesting for my friend, as he will stick with Lynch 1 and 2 only in tournaments.

@Maniacal_cackle : That is a shame about Graves, as my friend really like the model...Why is he not liked exactly? He is tanky and hit hard. Too expensive for what he does?

 

Ideally, this is what he would want to play VISUALLY :

Lynch 1 or 2

Hungering Darkness

Tannen

Graves

Kitty

Beckoner

Illuminated with silent protector

Illuminated

 

Now, if Graves is not mandatory, he would replace him with another illuminated, or a kunoichi, or a dawn serpent like @regleant suggested.

Is it a well rounded list for both Lynches?

 

If not, what kind of well rounded list would you suggest for Lynch 1 and 2, so my friends can stick with them (he is open to some versatiles and OOKS if he has too, but would really prefer staying in his keyword as much as he can)

 

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

9 minutes ago, Arko said:

@Adran : What you say about getting one list and do everything with it is really interesting for my friend, as he will stick with Lynch 1 and 2 only in tournaments.

@Maniacal_cackle : That is a shame about Graves, as my friend really like the model...

 

Ideally, this is what he would want to play VISUALLY :

Lynch 1 or 2

Hungering Darkness

Tannen

Graves

Kitty

Beckoner

Illuminated with silent protector

Illuminated

 

Now, if Graves is not mandatory, he would replace him with another illuminated, or a kunoichi, or a dawn serpent like @regleant suggested.

Is it a well rounded list for both Lynches?

 

If not, what kind of well rounded list would you suggest for Lynch 1 and 2, so my friends can stick with them (he is open to some versatiles and OOKS if he has too, but would really prefer staying in his keyword as much as he can)

 

 

My suggestion would be to get the core of what you want and start playing some games.

I bought two boxes to start, and played that for about six months getting the hang of everything.

[Maniacal_cackle]

40 minutes ago, Arko said:

 

@Maniacal_cackle : That is a shame about Graves, as my friend really like the model...Why is he not liked exactly? He is tanky and hit hard. Too expensive for what he does?

Too expensive for what he does, and I think people don't like that the black blood hurts the rest of the crew.

40 minutes ago, Arko said:

Ideally, this is what he would want to play VISUALLY :

Lynch 1 or 2

Hungering Darkness

Tannen

Graves

Kitty

Beckoner

Illuminated with silent protector

Illuminated

 

 

I'm no expert, and most people hate Gwyneth, but I think she's awesome so I'd swap Graves for Gwyneth and then give it a go.

But honestly I recommend playing every model that you buy. Every model that I manage to assemble and paint sees table time, because I like to fully test out models and not just listen to internet advice.

Malifaux is really a game of discovery, and you can discover a lot of cool tricks that people miss.

[Arko]

@Maniacal_cackle : Alright, he is going to buy the 2 Lynches boxes + "Dark Dealings" and "Friendly Faces", and start from there.

Why people hate Gwyneth though?

[Maniacal_cackle]

48 minutes ago, Arko said:

@Maniacal_cackle : Alright, he is going to buy the 2 Lynches boxes + "Dark Dealings" and "Friendly Faces", and start from there.

Why people hate Gwyneth though?

I don't know.

Min 3 with brilliance, a bonus to draw three most times, rig the deck 3, come play at my table... I think she has a ton of useful tools xD

[Arko]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I don't know.

Min 3 with brilliance, a bonus to draw three most times, rig the deck 3, come play at my table... I think she has a ton of useful tools xD

Her card looks really good indeed. And my friend loves her gameplay about gambling, playing with cards, etc...Maybe people don't like her because of her price (9)? Or because she is a bit fragile?

[regleant]

1 hour ago, Arko said:

Why people hate Gwyneth though?

For me personally, if I am going to spend 9 points on a model, I have to have a game plan for it on the table. Either it's going to score me points, or it's going to rampage and murder. Gwyneth does neither of these, well. "Come play at my table" is her strongest ability, imho, and it's utility. 

 

Specific to your friend's preference on aesthetics, if he doesn't like the Asian theme, then probably avoid the Dawn Serpent to keep happy. Fuhatsu, though, is always a fun add.   That said, I agree with Maniacle_Cackle - it's better to get in games with a smaller list, then grow as you find you want to experiment with different things. 

[Arko]

15 minutes ago, regleant said:

For me personally, if I am going to spend 9 points on a model, I have to have a game plan for it on the table. Either it's going to score me points, or it's going to rampage and murder. Gwyneth does neither of these, well. "Come play at my table" is her strongest ability, imho, and it's utility. 

 

Specific to your friend's preference on aesthetics, if he doesn't like the Asian theme, then probably avoid the Dawn Serpent to keep happy. Fuhatsu, though, is always a fun add.   That said, I agree with Maniacle_Cackle - it's better to get in games with a smaller list, then grow as you find you want to experiment with different things. 

Ok, so basically she is not bad, but she is overpriced. Like Graves apparently. Maybe Lynch crew needs just a few tweak on their cost, and they could play only under their Keyword? Would make my friend really happy 😆

Anyway, yes I agree with both of you, that is why he is going to buy only the Honeypot keyword boxes for now, and if in the long term he wants to add some ten thunders versatiles, he will convert them to fit Lynch's aesthetic, he is a very good modelist and sculptor. He already has some ideas to convert the dawn serpent easily for example.

[Adran]

4 hours ago, Arko said:

@Adran : What you say about getting one list and do everything with it is really interesting for my friend, as he will stick with Lynch 1 and 2 only in tournaments.

 

Just be aware that it's not an easy option and its not the cheap option either, but it can be done if you are that type of player. ( from what you say it's not quite what he is doing anyway). 

I'm not the person to suggest strong multipurpose lists, I work on the other end of the spectrum, and create a new list for every game and will use crazy combinations. 

[Arko]

15 minutes ago, Adran said:

Just be aware that it's not an easy option and its not the cheap option either, but it can be done if you are that type of player. ( from what you say it's not quite what he is doing anyway). 

I'm not the person to suggest strong multipurpose lists, I work on the other end of the spectrum, and create a new list for every game and will use crazy combinations. 

No, he doesn't mind changing his list, he just doesn't want to change his Master, he does the same thing in every game, he always takes a long time to pick his faction/army, but when he make up his mind, he sticks to that faction/army forever