The jury, death, and her df trigger.

[Korrok]

So say the jury is at 2 health and takes a hit for 5 damage. Would her df trigger ping back 5 damage or 2? I ask because in the damage section it states that any damage that would bring a model below 0 is ignored. Her trigger specifies that it bounces back an equal amount to what was suffered. Since she took 2 damage and the rest was ignored  would it then only bounce back the 2?

[Angelshard]

From the FAQ

7. When determining how much damage a model suffered from an effect (for purposes such as the Necrotic Decay Trigger), is damage reduction accounted for?
a) Yes. Whenever an effect is referring to the amount of damage a model suffered from an effect, it is always referring to the amount the model’s Health was lowered in Step 4 of Damage Timing (pg. 34). It is important to note a model’s Health can never be reduced below 0. As such, excess damage past 0 is not treated as damage suffered by the model.

So in your example the other model would suffer 2.

[Korrok]

27 minutes ago, Angelshard said:

From the FAQ

7. When determining how much damage a model suffered from an effect (for purposes such as the Necrotic Decay Trigger), is damage reduction accounted for?
a) Yes. Whenever an effect is referring to the amount of damage a model suffered from an effect, it is always referring to the amount the model’s Health was lowered in Step 4 of Damage Timing (pg. 34). It is important to note a model’s Health can never be reduced below 0. As such, excess damage past 0 is not treated as damage suffered by the model.

So in your example the other model would suffer 2.

So exactly like I thought. Wanted to make sure I wasent missing anything. 

[santaclaws01]

51 minutes ago, Angelshard said:

From the FAQ

7. When determining how much damage a model suffered from an effect (for purposes such as the Necrotic Decay Trigger), is damage reduction accounted for?
a) Yes. Whenever an effect is referring to the amount of damage a model suffered from an effect, it is always referring to the amount the model’s Health was lowered in Step 4 of Damage Timing (pg. 34). It is important to note a model’s Health can never be reduced below 0. As such, excess damage past 0 is not treated as damage suffered by the model.

So in your example the other model would suffer 2.

Balancing The Scales doesn't say the attacking model suffers the amount of damage the Jury suffered, it says the attacking model suffers the same amount of damage as The Jury suffers. So, before any reduction takes place.

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

16 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Balancing The Scales doesn't say the attacking model suffers the amount of damage the Jury suffered, it says the attacking model suffers the same amount of damage as The Jury suffers. So, before any reduction takes place.

The FAQ states that damage suffered for the sake of an effect is equal to health lowered (Step 4), which is after damage reduction (Step 3). Can also read the statement as, “the attacking model suffers the same amount of damage as the Jury lowered its health”.

[santaclaws01]

5 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

The FAQ states that damage suffered for the sake of an effect is equal to health lowered (Step 4), which is after damage reduction (Step 3). Can also read the statement as, “the attacking model suffers the same amount of damage as the Jury lowered its health”.

No, the FAQ says that when an effect is talking about the amount of damage a model suffered it's talking about the amount that health gets lowered in step 4. This defense trigger is not talking about the amount of damage the Jury suffered. Suffers!=Suffered, The Jury suffers X damage, and suffered Y damage.

[Korrok]

1 hour ago, santaclaws01 said:

No, the FAQ says that when an effect is talking about the amount of damage a model suffered it's talking about the amount that health gets lowered in step 4. This defense trigger is not talking about the amount of damage the Jury suffered. Suffers!=Suffered, The Jury suffers X damage, and suffered Y damage.

If you can find a place where in the rules it mechanically seperate the terms to be from different steps, sure. But as it stands it feels like you're applying mechanics where none exist to my knowledge. From my understanding a model does not suffer any damage until its been applied to the model, in which case damage reduction always happens before damage is applied. 

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

1 hour ago, santaclaws01 said:

No, the FAQ says that when an effect is talking about the amount of damage a model suffered it's talking about the amount that health gets lowered in step 4. This defense trigger is not talking about the amount of damage the Jury suffered. Suffers!=Suffered, The Jury suffers X damage, and suffered Y damage.

Interesting perspective, so you are saying that effects which state "when this model suffers damage" resolve prior to step 1 of damage timing? I can kind of see the logic behind that when looking at the difference between Hard Knock Life (After this model suffers damage) and Infused Body (When this model suffers damage). However, damage for flips is not known until step 2 of damage timing. How can a model suffer the same amount of an unknown number? Looking at Candy's or the Rider's resist triggers (reduce the damage this model suffers by 2), and I notice that that "suffers damage" still persists past step 3 of damage timing. Also, Hard Knock Life being after "suffers damage" probably means "suffers damage" doesn't persist to step 5 of damage timing, suggesting that step four is the point when "suffers damage" occurs (unless common consensus is to resolve this after step 6).

I think a more consistent, and simple, application of "suffers damage" is "when" = step 4 and "after" = step 5 of damage timing. I can see disagreement with that opinion, but I think it is based on interpreting suffers and suffered as two different words instead of the same word at different points in time (which seems to be a common dividing point amongst the community). Application of something other than the above would have "when suffers damage" abilities occurring at different points in time based on effect.

From a balance perspective, it seems a bit much that the trigger is unaffected by any DR the Jury has. Why even bother attacking her when she has LLC and soul stones available?

[santaclaws01]

28 minutes ago, Korrok said:

If you can find a place where in the rules it mechanically seperate the terms to be from different steps, sure. But as it stands it feels like you're applying mechanics where none exist to my knowledge. From my understanding a model does not suffer any damage until its been applied to the model, in which case damage reduction always happens before damage is applied. 

"If a game effect references the amount of damage suffered, it is referring to the amount of damage suffered after damage reduction", the entirety of the damage rules in general, and the simple fact that actions say "Target suffers ... damage" and then the amount of damage actually suffered is explicitly a different value.
 

 

2 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

Interesting perspective, so you are saying that effects which state "when this model suffers damage" resolve prior to step 1 of damage timing? I can kind of see the logic behind that when looking at the difference between Hard Knock Life (After this model suffers damage) and Infused Body (When this model suffers damage). However, damage for flips is not known until step 2 of damage timing. How can a model suffer the same amount of an unknown number? Looking at Candy's or the Rider's resist triggers (reduce the damage this model suffers by 2), and I notice that that "suffers damage" still persists past step 3 of damage timing. Also, Hard Knock Life being after "suffers damage" probably means "suffers damage" doesn't persist to step 5 of damage timing, suggesting that step four is the point when "suffers damage" occurs (unless common consensus is to resolve this after step 6).

I think a more consistent, and simple, application of "suffers damage" is "when" = step 4 and "after" = step 5 of damage timing. I can see disagreement with that opinion, but I think it is based on interpreting suffers and suffered as two different words instead of the same word at different points in time (which seems to be a common dividing point amongst the community). Application of something other than the above would have "when suffers damage" abilities occurring at different points in time based on effect.

From a balance perspective, it seems a bit much that the trigger is unaffected by any DR the Jury has. Why even bother attacking her when she has LLC and soul stones available?

Why did you jump from me saying "suffers is pre reduction amount" to thinking I mean it's before step 1 of damage timing? That doesn't even make sense, no damage is determined by that point. Step 2 is when you determine how much damage a model suffers, and that's what step you look at for any effects that reference how much damage a model suffers.

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

48 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Why did you jump from me saying "suffers is pre reduction amount" to thinking I mean it's before step 1 of damage timing? That doesn't even make sense, no damage is determined by that point. Step 2 is when you determine how much damage a model suffers, and that's what step you look at for any effects that reference how much damage a model suffers.

Step 2 is flip for damage, nowhere does it say the model suffers damage equal to the flip. "suffers damage" is only explicitly in the rules prior to resolving Step 1 in damage timing (When a model suffers damage, it follows the timing structure below), or implicitly in Step 4 (when it actually suffers damage by lowering health). Step 2 does not say to resolve effects which say "model suffers damage", only increasing/adding damage. If you where to say determining how much damage a model suffers is enough to trigger "suffers damage" effects, Step 3 would also determine how much damage a model suffers, again based on Candy/Rider triggers.  So either it happens prior to damage timing, or the trigger resolves twice if Jury has any damage reduction. This is how I got to prior to Step 1 of damage timing, because stuff goes haywire otherwise by simply following rules as written.

To be quite honest, even the Soul Stone usage section is kind of borked imo. After damage is suffered reduce the damage the model suffers... Apparently Suffers==Suffered AND Suffers!=Suffered ("suffers damage" starts the damage timing sequence and "suffered damage" isn't until Step 5). Take your pick... you can't be wrong!

[santaclaws01]

Just now, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

nowhere does it say the model suffers damage equal to the flip.

If you want to just ignore the fact that the rule causing the flip is "Target suffers x/y/z damage"

34 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

To be quite honest, even the Soul Stone usage section is kind of borked imo.

Yeah, but the actual rules for how soulstone reduction work in the damage section correctly outline what's supposed to happen. There's a few cases of a incorrectly referencing how a rule works in one part but then the actual rule it's referencing working differently.

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

14 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

If you want to just ignore the fact that the rule causing the flip is "Target suffers x/y/z damage"

Yeah, but the actual rules for how soul stone reduction work in the damage section correctly outline what's supposed to happen. There's a few cases of a incorrectly referencing how a rule works in one part but then the actual rule it's referencing working differently.

I wouldn't say ignoring it, just recognizing that an effect which says "Target suffers damage" is a six step process and not a single event (as per the damage timing rules). To illustrate on the Jury with 1HP and LLC, and an attack which says "Target suffers 3/4/6". Suffered = time after HP has been lowered, based on FAQ wording (your earlier correction was quite helpful for this). Each step starts with the statement of the current form of the damage effect.

Step 1: "Target suffers 3/4/6 damage". Nothing affects damage at this point. Damage NOT suffered yet.

Step 2: "Target suffers 3/4/6 damage". Attacker flips a moderate. Damage NOT suffered yet.

Step 3: "Target suffers 4 damage". Armor reduces damage by 1. Damage NOT suffered yet. Important point here is that Armor is another ability which states "suffered" but resolves prior to "suffered". If Armor's wording using "suffered" doesn't seem right here, just use any Rider's Trigger here. This step mentions final damage total, and I don't think that damage can be "determined" prior to this step.

Step 4: "Target suffers 3 damage". Jury lowers health by 1 to 0. Damage is suffered.

Step 5: "Target suffered 1 damage".

After walking through it I've changed my mind a little. I actually think that damage is after damage reduction, prior to accounting for if the model hits 0 health. So I think OP's example would have the Jury doing 5 damage with the trigger, or 4 damage with the trigger if holding LLC, and not 2 damage because that would have been damage suffered. Might be considered the most wrong by everyone, but I think it is what 

The comment about soul stones was more sarcasm about how abilities which resolve in the same steps of damage timing use both suffers and suffered interchangeably. If reading two core rules one way allows both rules to coexist and reading the same two core rules another way causes one to become incorrect/broken, I think the former is the more correct way since the latter is open to subjectivity on what rule is more correct.

TLDR; "suffers damage" is after DR, but prior to accounting for if a model hits 0 health.

--EDIT--

The Soul Stone Usage section AND the Damage Reduction section both state that soul stones modify the damage a model suffers, I don't think two sections can be written off as incorrect. Also, Damage Reduction is applied after damage is determined and not after a model suffers damage, but that brings a big question: is determined damage what a model suffers or is the final damage total what a model suffers? Still leaning toward final damage total being what a model "suffers".