Summoning onto the roof of a building

[GrumpyGrandpa]

Hello everyone

My local gaming area just started adding a whole lot of buildings with accessable rooftops that allow a model to climb up and shoot. My question, however, is whether I can summon models onto the roof of the building, and do I need to account for the height of the building?

An example of this would be Som'er. He has a summon with range 6. I wanna summon a model onto a height 4 building. Do I need to account for the height 4, or can I treat summoning as a "Flight" mechanic, where I basically just place the model.

[Adran]

yes you can summon onto a building. You will have to allow for the ht difference, so the bayou must be placed within 6", and in your example, 2" will be lost on height (Ht 4, minus Sz 2 of Sommer). If Sommer was on the building and hiring off then he could lose 3" (Ht 4- Sz 1 of bayou gremlin).

Check out the section on measuring (Page 13 I think)

[Scoffer]

As long as Summoning is a Place, you don't have to take vertical distance into account (P.15 digital rulebook).

[GrumpyGrandpa]

46 minutes ago, Scoffer said:

As long as Summoning is a Place, you don't have to take vertical distance into account (P.15 digital rulebook).

Do you have an example of a summon that is a Place? 

[Scoffer]

4 minutes ago, GrumpyGrandpa said:

Do you have an example of a summon that is a Place? 

Page 32: Summoned models are placed into base contact and within LoS of the model whose Action or Ability Summoned them unless the effect states otherwise

[GrumpyGrandpa]

1 minute ago, Scoffer said:

Page 32: Summoned models are placed into base contact and within LoS of the model whose Action or Ability Summoned them unless the effect states otherwise

Wicked

So Som'er would actually ignore the height difference, in the aformentioned scenario?

[Scoffer]

4 minutes ago, GrumpyGrandpa said:

Wicked

So Som'er would actually ignore the height difference, in the aformentioned scenario?

Yes. And he doesn't even need LoS to the summoned model (: But he can't summon into a building (p.38: place effects can't move a model into a Building)

[LeperColony]

8 minutes ago, Scoffer said:

🙂 But he can't summon into a building (p.38: place effects can't move a model into a Building)

Yeah.  Even if he's standing in the middle of a huge building alone, he can't summon a model inside it.  Seems kind of odd, but them's the rules.

[Mycellanious]

2 hours ago, Scoffer said:

As long as Summoning is a Place, you don't have to take vertical distance into account (P.15 digital rulebook).

I think I disagree with this. That part of the rules refers to "picking something up and placing it sonewhere else." When you draw range from the object's original position to its current position you ignore vertical distance, but the summoned model doesnt have an original spot. That creates weird scenarios where Sommer summons models "within 6"" that are 7 or 8 inches away from him... 

A similar problem arises for Ride the Rails if you ignore verticality. Foundry models can only place in base with Scrap within 12". So if I measure up a hight 4 building to a Scrap marker 12" away horizontally, the distance between Mei Feng and the Scrap marker is 14". However, could I argue the distance between them is actually 12" because it is a place effect?

I think the answer to both RtR and Summoning is "no," because when checking range to the Scrap marker or the spot you want to summon it must be within the range if the ability. Sommer cannot summon on top of a Ht 4 building if he is 3" away because when drawing range from Sommer to that spot the distance between them is greater than 6"

[Scoffer]

45 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

A similar problem arises for Ride the Rails if you ignore verticality. Foundry models can only place in base with Scrap within 12". So if I measure up a hight 4 building to a Scrap marker 12" away horizontally, the distance between Mei Feng and the Scrap marker is 14". However, could I argue the distance between them is actually 12" because it is a place effect?

RtR has nothing in common with Summoning.

Range of RtR Place is "in base contact with a scrap marker withtin 12". When you use RtR you measure the distance between your model and scrap marker as usual (horisontal+vertical) and place your model in base contact with it. 

[Mycellanious]

2 hours ago, Scoffer said:

RtR has nothing in common with Summoning.

Range of RtR Place is "in base contact with a scrap marker withtin 12". When you use RtR you measure the distance between your model and scrap marker as usual (horisontal+vertical) and place your model in base contact with it. 

And when you summon you measure distance between the summoner and the spot you want to summon the model as normal (horizontal+ vertical) and place the model within that range.

[LeperColony]

1 hour ago, Mycellanious said:

And when you summon you measure distance between the summoner and the spot you want to summon the model as normal (horizontal+ vertical) and place the model within that range.

No, but the distinction is actually pretty subtle.

RtR is not a place within 12".  In other words, it's not a 12" place that ends on a scrap marker.  If it were, we could ignore vertical range to the scrap marker.  However, RtR says "Place itself into base contact with a scrap marker within 12".  

So we need to consider the distance between the model and the marker, which means we have to care about vertical distance as well.

Summoning, on the other hand, is just a place.  So you can ignore vertical distance provided that the summon effect doesn't measure distance from another object.  If it said something like Moonshine in a Barrel would care about vertical distance when measuring the range for the scrap marker.  You couldn't say "it's a place" and, using that rule, ignore the vertical distance to the scrap marker.

[Mycellanious]

35 minutes ago, LeperColony said:

No, but the distinction is actually pretty subtle.

RtR is not a place within 12".  In other words, it's not a 12" place that ends on a scrap marker.  If it were, we could ignore vertical range to the scrap marker.  However, RtR says "Place itself into base contact with a scrap marker within 12".  

So we need to consider the distance between the model and the marker, which means we have to care about vertical distance as well.

Summoning, on the other hand, is just a place.  So you can ignore vertical distance provided that the summon effect doesn't measure distance from another object.  If it said something like Moonshine in a Barrel would care about vertical distance when measuring the range for the scrap marker.  You couldn't say "it's a place" and, using that rule, ignore the vertical distance to the scrap marker.

But the summon effect does measure distance from another object. It measures distance from Som'er

"Summon the named models anywhere within range"

If you place the model on a ht 4 building and Som'er is 3" away horizontally, the model is not within range. 

[LeperColony]

Just now, Mycellanious said:

But the summon effect does measure distance from another object. It measures distance from Som'er

Oh, sorry, I was speaking summoning generally.  Not with reference to Som'er.  

[Mycellanious]

39 minutes ago, LeperColony said:

Oh, sorry, I was speaking summoning generally.  Not with reference to Som'er.  

Yea, thats fair. In practice tho, are there any summons where it makes a difference? 

[LeperColony]

17 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

Yea, thats fair. In practice tho, are there any summons without a range?

To be honest I don't know, since my overall model knowledge is not exactly top tier.  Though Ashes and Dust Demise may qualify.

Pre-edit edit----

While writing this post, I thought more about it and the summon effect doesn't measure from another object in the sense I was talking about.

The summoner itself isn't the other object, the summoner is the one generating the effect.  By another object, I mean for instance an ability that says "target a corpse marker" or some such.

However, I think it would depend on the specific wording of the ability.  

The reason RtR is different is the ability indicates you select a scrap marker within 12" (so vertical counts), then place into base contact with it.  

---

I actually keep going back-and-forth on this, and I think language can be found to support either opinion.

At the moment, I think I come down on the side of vertical counting for summons, under the following logic:

The summons is not a place, the summons involves a place.  So when you're measuring to "summon" a model, vertical distance counts.  You then place that model at that location, using the place rules.

Obviously though, this is an opinion I hold with little conviction, so I'm prepared to accept a better concept if it comes around.