Colette: What is her power level?

[Vangerdahast]

@extremor: Glad to know that the two options are valid.

For me, depends on the Strategy and Schemes and the ennemy Crew. Sometimes a lot of fighting with only the Duet and sometimes no fighting at all for the Duet.

I only play Colette but cool that Coryphees have uses with others Masters or Henchman.

 

[Ogid]

4 hours ago, Vangerdahast said:

Approximately what you said. Generaly I activate Doves first. So one Dove Walks once in order to be a bit out of deployment zone (3 or 4''). A model activates and moves in the middle of my table half  (if there is no big threat). Colette activates late in turn. She walks once and is in range of my target, then Presto Chango the target with the Dove. The target is 3 or 4'' of my deployment zone, so in chargge range of the Duet. The Duet activates last and charges and attack, split the Duet. The opponent has no models to activate or his model is too far away from the Duet. Reform the Duet and makes two attacks versus the target. If I have enough movement and the terrain permits it, Charge through with the Duet on each activation, for 1 free damage. The target should be dead by then. If not, win initiative turn 2 (cheating can be necessary), activate the Duet. Most of Minions and Enforcers can't survive to six attacks by the Duet (a good Hand helps a bit).

If Colette is not in range of the target with one walk, she Presto Chango herself with the friendly model who stands in the middle of my table half and she should be in range of the target. It requires a bit of positionning but I prefer it to slinging forward my Duet which can be then beaten by unactivated ennemy models.

Models I have killed this way: Teddy, Bishop, Peacekeeper, Talos, Mounted Guard, Queller, Executioner..... Not so bad for someone who don't like killing.XD

It sounds solid . You are going to note the difference when you try the little robot. Free Focused+2 for the duet is like giving it 2 full extra actions. It makes really easy to get the moderate/severe damage in two of the attacks; which is more efficiency in the end, you may kill something in 2 APs and then use the second activation to go scheme. Also each duet AP is worth 3SS and the toolkit actions are worth 2SS; so it's really more efficient using the robot for that.

Sling the Duet forward is indeed risky, that's only worth it after buffing it. The idea of those kind of strategies are always get the model ready for combat outside of the enemy reach (which in this game is a lot of positive conditions) and then throw it into combat and deal the higher amount of damage possible in the least number of actions; which make it harder to punish for the other player. Pushing this concept, a duet with Fast, Focused+7 and Shielded+2 (which is a haka dancing heavy turn 1 and some extra buffing in turn 2) will be able deal a ton of damage; like three times the ammount of damage a "vanilla" duet deal in one turn. It won't be hard to reach 20-26 damage before reduction in one turn; which is also why you want to slingshot it agressively; that's enough to kill 2 important enemy models.

In the above crew the idea was swapping the duet because the attuned Bear with Horns mutation and Grit active was waiting for the other model in Colette's DZ (which without fast and for only 2 SS may also reach stupid ammounts of damage with only Focused+1 and a charge; it won't be hard to get 10-16 damage, 13-21 with fast); so you can actually swap it for an unactivated dangerous model for the duet (that dude that ignore armor for example) into the 2'' engagement range of Colette (which will make it harder to deal damage unless that model also have 2'' range) and there would also be there the non-charge aura of Amina to also make it less efficient for that model; which kills 2 birds with one stone (control an unactivated model and position the duet).

If you do that after giving up the first activation, use your last 3 activations (Colette, Bear and Duet) and swap an unactivated enemy model, the duet will only have to survive 1 enemy activation before going in its killing spree (which sounds quite reasonable). If this tactic is well executed, it can deal enough damage to secure that game in turn 2; and Colette swaps are a very powerful enabler for this kind of playstile.

This isn't fool proof tho. The 2 big things to watch out before slinging are ludicrous beaters able to kill the duet in one activation (which shouldn't be many, specially with Shielded) and enemy condition removal/debuffers; the big cards in the hand should be used defensively if needed taking in count Focused and stat 7 will make the offensive part very easy. If after all the Haka dancing the other player just use dispel magic twice and remove the whole stack of Focused and Fast, it'll hurt a lot.

I know it's a very different playstile, but I'd stress test this kind of list with her; as I said above I'm not a Colette player but I really think this kind of killy lists may also perform well with her. Also if this is legit, being able to switch between both styles could make other players having to modify their list to try to counter both, and not bring list optimiced for showgirl major hunt.

[Vangerdahast]

Interesting, but as already said, we have different approach of the game.

Using all this set-up to kill two important ennemy models means that you don't score points at the same time (excepted in Reckoning with Assassinate and Vendetta). This also can be countered as you said but even without  condition removal there are so many things that can happen during one ennemy activation (Duet being Stunned, Buried, Placed elsewhere,...) that I am not sure this is so safe for the Duet. This can be tested but I don't think it's a list that can be played frequently.

Personaly, I won't test it because it is not a fun list (for me and my opponent). Even if I am quite a competitive player I try to stay in Keyword and go outside only if I absolutely need. Background-wise this list is quite a non-sense (no offense intended).

No problem with your approach (which is perfectly legit) but not my cup of tea. But i will test some options as the Mobile Toolkit.

 

[extremor]

8 hours ago, Ogid said:

I know it's a very different playstile, but I'd stress test this kind of list with her; as I said above I'm not a Colette player but I really think this kind of killy lists may also perform well with her. Also if this is legit, being able to switch between both styles could make other players having to modify their list to try to counter both, and not bring list optimiced for showgirl major hunt.

I agree being able to swich style increases the strength and flexibility. To me Colette has that ability even without the Duett buffed up to eternity while spending AP. Eg. Colette with Duett and 2 Coryphee, Ferdinand Vogel, Cassandra can already be quite a killy crew. Or I played Colette with Toni twice and found this setup quite interesting and strong in beating. There are some ways of doing so. 

[Ogid]

Don't get me wrong, play whatever you enjoy of course . But to know the real power level of the keyword (the point of this thread), the viability of secondary lists concept also need to be adressed (killy, OOK/versatile heavy, shenanigans, double masters...).

Colette deals low damage, but there are damage crews with support masters working well (Marcus being an example in the faction or Lucius/Von Schtook to name others) and Colette's kit used to set up kills and protect her beaters through reposition and control is golden (and Presto chango is one of the more powerful reposition abilities in the game hands down; I could see making crews around it a good idea). Her keyword may be light in combat powerhouses, but Arcanist is full of good beater options to abuse that extra mobility and control, even in the versatile pool; just an Arachnid Swarm in the right spot can be a really nasty surprise. That concept sounds legit; in fact there are also lists heavy in OOK/Versatiles (Shenlong or Seamus for example) doing very well in tournaments, but it needs testing of course.

And these won't work in all pools and versus all masters; but that's good, otherwise it'd be broken! The idea would be picking it into the right pool and taking in count the tools of the other crew (as you point out, debuffs hit the duet also twice as hard if it wants to use the double activation; it's just not the right pick to throw it forward versus Pandora for example); however a displacement like Terrorize won't be that efficient when the duet has 6 AP.

About the theme: Toni is planning to strike Guild hard and can't decide between bringing an army of unionized bears with Horns or tricked-out dancing bots; so she "asked" Colette to test both and sent Amina to supervise it. It makes perfect sense! Right?

1 hour ago, extremor said:

I agree being able to swich style increases the strength and flexibility. To me Colette has that ability even without the Duett buffed up to eternity while spending AP. Eg. Colette with Duett and 2 Coryphee, Ferdinand Vogel, Cassandra can already be quite a killy crew. Or I played Colette with Toni twice and found this setup quite interesting and strong in beating. There are some ways of doing so.

Yep, and it's also kind of a buff for the primary nimble style of the crew; a predictable list will always face the best posible answer. But if there are more vectors to worry about, the other player will have to leave something out to cover well all bases or try to guess which style is going to face (even putting himself at a dissadvantage if he guess wrong)

Interesting lists! I'm sure there are a lot of options. I focused in the high risk/high reward style of alpha strike with 2 min/maxed models; but using several beaters sounds also like a good option to play a schemy crew able to stay mobile but still fight back in areas where they aren't heavily contested.

How does the Toni one works tho? Unless she is feeded with a lot of Adrenaline/Focused, her damage output isn't that great for a Master (but she is tough as nails tho).

[extremor]

42 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Interesting lists! I'm sure there are a lot of options. I focused in the high risk/high reward style of alpha strike with 2 min/maxed models; but using several beaters sounds also like a good option to play a schemy crew able to stay mobile but still fight back in areas where they aren't heavily contested.

How does the Toni one works tho? Unless she is feeded with a lot of Adrenaline/Focused, her damage output isn't that great for a Master (but she is tough as nails tho).

Yes, I got that and I find it an legit style of play. I'm also interested if it works and what exp you make with it. Especially "what comes after the alpha strike"? How does your crew perform in the long run and how does it score/win? 

Mhh, first of all, I played Toni (with SSC) once with Captain and once with Gunsmith. I found the Cap more of a thread in this kind of setup even though the GS can attack Toni to give add Adrenaline...  Of course I used Presto to teleport enemies into Tonis bubble. I focussed on models, that can make life hard for the rest of my crew (fast models, that can take out performers easyly). If you do berfore Toni activated you get 2 Adrenaline as she activates. I didn't use em first turn - just focus and beat, then beat with the Cap... second turn I used a dove to attack Toni and die of the defense trigger, gaining additional Adrenalin and getting a card and a soulstone. then again teleport enemy into bubble and beat the hell out of them.... and so on. It isn't as much Adrenaline as in a classic M&SU Crew but it works as well - esp. since my favourite style of play is to distract the enemy with beaters and combos n stuff, so he/she is concerned about models like Toni, Duett... and leaves my schemers aside (which then score)...

 

Edit: found one list in my app:

Colette + 3SS, 3xDove, Toni + SSC, Cap, Angelica, Mannequin, SSM+MT

[Ogid]

18 minutes ago, extremor said:

Yes, I got that and I find it an legit style of play. I'm also interested if it works and what exp you make with it. Especially "what comes after the alpha strike"? How does your crew perform in the long run and how does it score/win?

We aren't that experienced with this game yet (we no longer have as much time for playing that before...), but so far so good. Alpha strike looks like a legit strategy, but in this game there are a lot of extra things to consider (enemy master perks, the different schemes), so it's easier to end shooting yourself in the foot if you overcomit or pick it into the wrong pool/master (which honestly is great game design). In other games I've used this style and worked well to me. An alpha strike is a means to an end; the goal is maximice the damage you can do, which at the same time reduce the options of the adversary (both because he has to be careful to play around your killing zone or force him to deal with your damage dealers before being able to focus in other part of their play; and because after dropping the hammer, you'll remove some important tools for him).

But it's not an easy style tho; it require you to know inside out what your crew can do, the most efficients way to buff your model and attack theirs and also what the other player can do and bring tools to counter it. Rushing is always more taxing and expose more your models than waiting for them to give the first step or advance while models are able to support each other (bubble). If a model is spinballed and there is something you didn't take in count, odds are it won't end well for your alpha striker. And you are also funneling a ton of resources into your one or two spearhead models (resources not helping the rest of the crew/scoring); if those don't deal as much damage as it should or get controlled, it will put you behind even if your strikers survive. Trading models isn't always necessary, but if the trade is favourable and you are VERY sure you can get the kill; it's something to consider.

The follow up after an alpha strike depends on how it was; if it was susccessful, the other player would have some very important tools taken away from him. At that point it's about keeping the pressure if killing is the victory condition or go for objetives after removing the other player's ability to do the same or deny you. If it wasn't as successful as it should but still dealt good damage, then you have to adapt and play from there (which usually means bring the rest of the crew into the fray or GTFO). If it went south, then you'd learned a very valuable lesson about rushing M&SU and try to "Assassinate" the master XD. In this line, it's also important to know when it's not a good idea to go commit, for example the other player guessed right and brought extra tanky models, models with good defenses versus your models or things like "Take the hit" covering the targets you want to hit; in that case the right play is just fall back into a more standard play (and in this game, maybe select schemes different that the ones you had in mind). But as the tools to enable an striker are there, always keeping an eye just in case the other player put that key model just a bit too far away from those other models able to defend/retaliate, sometimes the threat of the attack is as crippling as the attack itself. As said above (fortunatelly) it's not fool proof.

There are a ton of possible scenarios so it's hard to enter in more details... but I hope it helps! . About Colette in particular:

Colette tools seems outstanding for this playstile. The Duet gaining kind of double advantage of buffs, being able to self buff much better than other models and also starting as a 6SS model to have a big advantage selecting targets/getting targeted for schemes make him a prime target for this (as long as you can keep him away from debuffers). But in the faction there is also a very cheap support able to tune him up very efficiently. And Colette brings an expensive but very powerful ability to displace that particular enemy you want dead or put the duet almost whereever you want it; but not only that, she has the mobility to follow and support a model by controling foes after the alpha strike (like distracted+stunned, 2'' engagement range and a bury/presto change useable to put a model able to retaliate away from that model). Plus other cool options in her crew like Mannequins to give the duet a way to deflect the few abilities able to really threaten him (Seduction versus my Focused+7 stack? Better use it versus my little buddy)

All of that screams alpha strike potential to me. But it's not just the duet and Colette, in archanist there is also amazing pieces able to do a lot of damage when they are the right situation that may cover scenarios where the duet may not perform well; and there is also the rider and Amina able to also support this funnel all your resources into one or two models playstyle while also bringing other tools to the table.

Alpha strike isn't clearly the focus of her crew; but if she can pull it off consistently, it'll give her crew a way to tackle more killy pools or a way to surprise players expecting the usual low damage high mobility style with a few kill before going for schemes; which is a plus for the keyword (and may also give her a niche as a second master)

2 hours ago, extremor said:

Mhh, first of all, I played Toni (with SSC) once with Captain and once with Gunsmith. I found the Cap more of a thread in this kind of setup even though the GS can attack Toni to give add Adrenaline...  Of course I used Presto to teleport enemies into Tonis bubble. I focussed on models, that can make life hard for the rest of my crew (fast models, that can take out performers easyly). If you do berfore Toni activated you get 2 Adrenaline as she activates. I didn't use em first turn - just focus and beat, then beat with the Cap... second turn I used a dove to attack Toni and die of the defense trigger, gaining additional Adrenalin and getting a card and a soulstone. then again teleport enemy into bubble and beat the hell out of them.... and so on. It isn't as much Adrenaline as in a classic M&SU Crew but it works as well - esp. since my favourite style of play is to distract the enemy with beaters and combos n stuff, so he/she is concerned about models like Toni, Duett... and leaves my schemers aside (which then score)...

It sounds decent, Toni require less support, is quite hard to put down and having 3 APs she will be able to still do some scheme work after the few key threats for the rest of the performers are dealt with; even if the damage isn't not that high it sounds solid... I would also give that a whirl.

[Vangerdahast]

On 12/26/2019 at 11:18 AM, Ogid said:

About the theme: Toni is planning to strike Guild hard and can't decide between bringing an army of unionized bears with Horns or tricked-out dancing bots; so she "asked" Colette to test both and sent Amina to supervise it. It makes perfect sense! Right?

Well, not a solid argument, but a hilarious one for sure!🤣

 

[Plaag]

On 12/26/2019 at 11:24 AM, extremor said:

I agree being able to swich style increases the strength and flexibility. To me Colette has that ability even without the Duett buffed up to eternity while spending AP. Eg. Colette with Duett and 2 Coryphee, Ferdinand Vogel, Cassandra can already be quite a killy crew. Or I played Colette with Toni twice and found this setup quite interesting and strong in beating. There are some ways of doing so. 

this is a very weak list of models, u don't need cassandra and vogel, and both coryphee and duet on the start of a game; if u want just to have fun, maybe

[Plaag]

On 12/26/2019 at 12:18 PM, Ogid said:

How does the Toni one works tho? Unless she is feeded with a lot of Adrenaline/Focused, her damage output isn't that great for a Master (but she is tough as nails tho).

for non-incorporeal models with melee attack resisted by df toni can make 6-12,13 dmg without focused if u will be lucky enough