Colette: What is her power level?

[Vangerdahast]

 

I mainly play Colette since end of Open Beta and while I frequently win with her some of my opponents think that she is very hard to face and presumably OP.

I am quite certain that this is not the case. Personaly I would rank her Top Tier (not OP Tier). But from what I am reading here and there, she seems to be rarely played in tournaments and seems to be perhaps Middle-Tier.

During Open Beta, there was huge debates about her and the Duet but at the same time, battle reports showed that she was losing frequently (something like 3 wins 1 draw 6 losses).

In the present thread about what would need an errata in Arcanists, there is nothing about the Performer Keyword.

 

So what people think about her real power level?

 

In my local meta, I generally face the following Masters:

Guild: Lady Justice - Sonia Criid

Ressers: Seamus - McMourning

Arcanists: Kaeris

Neverborn: Dreamer - Marcus - Lilith - Nekima (soon for this one)

Outcasts: Viktorias - Parker (soon for this one) - Tara (once) - Leveticus (soon)

Bayou: Ulix - Zipp - Lacroix -Zoraida (once)

Ten Thunder: Asami - Misaki - Mei Feng

Crossroads Seven

 

My Colette Crews are:

Colette

3 Doves

Cassandra

Coryphee Duet

Mechanical Rider OR 2 single Coryphees

Angelica OR Soulstone Miner + Magical Training (OK this one his perhaps OP but I don't play it each game)

Showgirl  OR Mannequin

Soulstones: Between 5 to 7

 

My toughest games are versus Ten Thunder (no surprise here) and Ressers. These players are also the ones who play the most in M3E. Perhaps a bit of an explanation about the difficulties the other players face versus Colette.

Generaly, the main concern is about her movement shenanigans, her strong denial power and her being unkillable. I have already given hints about ways to handle her to my opponents (as in this topic:  https://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/145523-colette-performer-m3e/).

It bothers me if people don't enjoy their game when facing her. I have other Masters to play with (Rasputina, Mei Feng, Hoffman, Perdita, Sonnia, Croosroads Seven).

Do people think that I should perhaps play Colette less versus players that have only a few games of M3E? Can she be a NPE experience?

 

[AskM3L8r]

Play with what you enjoy. There are plenty of Masters that are painful to "Kill" each have their own survival tricks. Toni - Unionized & Adrenaline, Raspy - ice pillars, Collette - tricks, I'm an Arcanist fan so have barely explored out of faction. 

Schemes and Strategies have a lot of impact on the success of a crew's performance. 

[extremor]

Isn‘t Colette like most of the other masters as well - if played by a skilled opponent who is focused to the task of getting victorypoints and knows his/her Personal play with the crew, it‘s a hard task to win -? 

I think there is a possible way of winning against every master, if you know how he/she works and if your faction has tools to counter... same with Colette. E.g. With Seamus I would concentrate on getting rid of the cheap schemers (Mannequin, Showgirl, Angelica) and soon you have to spend precious AP of your „good“ models on scheming. As a Colette player I know that‘s what makes my day hard...

[Ogid]

I don't have enough experience to have an well informed opinion about her. But she seems to be a more pool and adversary specific master than others, but very good in her niche. The puppet part of her crew is very good, not sure about the performer part (Cassandra and Carlos seems quite good, not sure about the others).

Sorry, no idea if her crew / some of her models are in need of buffs.

[Vangerdahast]

Thanks all for your answers.

 

@AskM3L8r: I have played around 70 games with Colette and still enjoy her playstyle. I think I can play her as long as the M3E will last. My concern is more about having people that wouldn't want to play versus her.

 

@extremor: Agree with you. But it may be a part of the problem. Some of my opponents have very few games of M3E and they think that Colette's tricks are near unstoppable. That's why I said "Is she a NPE? (for new players, should I have added).

My tougher opponents are those who play the most. And I can confirm you that Seamus is a hard match-up for Colette (even if I don't mind scheming with Colette or the Duet). And Misaki can be a nightmare to fight (but I still pick Colette versus her with goods results).

 

@Ogid: As said above, I play her frequently in any kind of Strats and Schemes. Some are a lot harder than others. I think she can do well in the majority of strategies with the exception of Reckoning. But even in this case, I consider her if the Scheme Pool favors her. In this case, I generally score 1 or 2 points for Reckoning and try to score all 4 Scheme points and do my best to keep my models alive (it works more or less) and deny my opponent's Scheme Points. I don't think shes is a niche Master (I can be wrong).

 

[Ogid]

if she is performing well in most scenarios, she should be more versatile than I initially thought. Also experience with the crew beats the theoric best pick for any pool;  it could be you are doing well in less than ideal scenarios if you know the crew inside out and how far you can go with each model.

My favourite model of her keyword is the coryphee/duet by far; that thing has a ton of potential. From getting Focused+3 in turn 1 by itself (needs 2 tomes tho) to get 8 to 12 APs per turn (even from turn 2). That has to be scary to face.

[Vangerdahast]

I rarely Focus with the Duet and don't see how you get to Focused +3 by itself. If you can develop (just to add a new trick to she show).

For the AP, I think you are talking about the Mechanical Rider with Soulstone Cache. Right? I used the Trigger of Revel in Creation in my first games but now my opponents generally target the Rider to make me use my Fate Tokens to reduce damage instead of reactivating the Duet.

 

[Ogid]

About the NPE thing... She is tricky to face if you don't know what she does, but that applies to most masters anyway. I wouldn't worry too much, any player with 70 games with a master is going to win matches versus a less experienced player without problems; also there are other masters and models getting the burden of the NPE hate right now XD.

About Seamus... She has a few good tricks versus him tho. Mannequins have take the hit and follow people around; Seamus hates wasting his bazooka shoots in 4SS minions, Colette stonning for to damage flip shouldn't take more than 2 damage (4 with bad luck); however RES are very tanky and have also heavy hitting fast models like Archie and Manos that are hard to swallow for her crew; so yeah it seems like a tough match.

13 hours ago, Vangerdahast said:

I rarely Focus with the Duet and don't see how you get to Focused +3 by itself. If you can develop (just to add a new trick to she show).

Sure .

Duet Concentrates, dance apart, focus go into the non active Coryphee, Dance partner getting Preparations (it require you to get/cheat a tomes). The other Coryphee activates, dance together, concentrate, move; Focused+3 for 1 tomes in turn 1 (the replacements and dances may let the duet advance around 7.2''); add a mobile toolkit for an extra +2 Focused. That's a weak turn 1, but it sets up nicely a combat focused turn 2.

Focused goes well with the 2/4/5 damage track, but versus enemies without damage reduction spamming attacks is also a good option.

EDIT: Edited for figuring out a better way

13 hours ago, Vangerdahast said:

For the AP, I think you are talking about the Mechanical Rider with Soulstone Cache. Right? I used the Trigger of Revel in Creation in my first games but now my opponents generally target the Rider to make me use my Fate Tokens to reduce damage instead of reactivating the Duet.

Yeah, Rider+SS cache; expensive but having a 8 or 12 AP model in turn 2 is nuts. 12 APs is doable with double fast using Hoffman and Cassandra (but that's probably pushing it too far). It can also be done with Amina+Cassandra, but that require crows to get fast and also pass the shielded TN to avoid damaging the duet. The most cost/efficient way would be including Amina and put fast in turn 1 after the duet activates, so it starts turn 2 with fast (that 10AP with the rider double activation, having also the possibility to ramp it up to 12 if it fits with the activation order).

With SS cache it can be reactivated in turn 2 (cheating a tome AND stonning), which pairs nicely with the above trick. Pair it with a Mannequin as sacrifical lamb in case something nasty try to snipe the coryphee/duet (and the Effigy if you expect conditions) and you got a one-pupet-army. Also SS can also be used to keep the rider alive without using fate tokens.

[Vangerdahast]

Thanks for the advices.

I forgot about Preparations. Need to try this trick in a future game. Generally, I use the 4 AP to attack a model that Colette has teleported near the Duet with Presto Chango in turn 1.

Concerning the 12 AP, I think it is pushing it too far. The 8 AP is still a thing but I prefer to wait until the end of turn in order to avoid retaliations versus a single Coryphee. And that is why it gives my opponent the opportunity to attack the Rider before it happens and make me spend my Fate Tokens. Perhaps I could be a bit more audacious.

And unfortunately I don't play Mannequins because I don't succeed to make them work (certainly a matter of playstyle).

 

[Ogid]

You're welcome!  Report back if you can, that feedback will help me to calibrate good matches for my future Hinamatsu puppet crew.

1 hour ago, Vangerdahast said:

Concerning the 12 AP, I think it is pushing it too far. The 8 AP is still a thing but I prefer to wait until the end of turn in order to avoid retaliations versus a single Coryphee. And that is why it gives my opponent the opportunity to attack the Rider before it happens and make me spend my Fate Tokens. Perhaps I could be a bit more audacious.

And unfortunately I don't play Mannequins because I don't succeed to make them work (certainly a matter of playstyle).

Yes, that's the weak point of the double fast strategy, it forces you to activate the rider and an extra model after the duet which could let the other player try to snipe one of the coryphees. And that's also why I like the Mannequins there; it slows down the duet a bit, but take the hit will keep the coryphees reasonably safe versus most things (not shockwaves and blasts tho); it depends on who you face and if they are expecting it. If there are things able to kill a coryphee or damage both Coryphees even with the Mannequin there, then it's better not risking it and settle for less APs.

But fast is still a very good boost to it (it gives +2AP instead of +1) and it can be given before it activates so there is no trade off there (and both Amina aura and Hoffman irreducible armor buffs helps keeping it alive); it's the double fast what "steal" some of the last activations, and that also force the crew to bubble a bit too much so it's probably not worth it in most scenarios. But maybe versus crews without much area damage it could be a good call in reckoning; the fast/double fast plus the Focused dance is probably one of the most agressive set up this crew may pull off (I'd add also a Mobile Toolkit for further buffing and supporting).

But it's probably a playstile thing. If you favour speed and outscheme over combat, all this haka dancing and extra support models will slow you down.

[Vangerdahast]

I will let you know how it went when I will play a Reckoning game.

And you are right with your last sentence. I generally prefer spreading my Crew to avoid being murdered by agressive Crews (one of my opponents play generally Misaki + Masked Agent with Fuhatsu and 2 Samurai, you don't want to bubble in that case). Spreading allows me to divide the ennemy forces that can't stay together if they want to chase all of these speedy dancers. It also gives me more options to unbury Colette where she is most needed to score or deny points.

I generaly play the killy game only if I have a good Hand Turn 1 and there is a juicy target that can be Presto Chango'ed near the Duet (Enforcer or Minion beaters that have already activated).

 

[Ogid]

Hehe, I'm more like a hammer with my way to approach an scenario. I was thinking: Ok... Fast and Focused+2 Duet (from toolkit and Amina) should be able to kill a Samurai or leave him with 1Wds in one activation in turn 1. Or if Colette can catch both of them and a December Acolyte is included, both are toasted (using both duet activations) if it can double Analyze Weaknessess debuff them, even without Focused... not very subtle play I know.

Ty, I'll wait for the report

EDIT: An idea for a crew around the killy theme without relying too much in the Duet here. With also a dancing bear!

EDIT2: Also edited the above post, the Duet is able to get Focused+3 by itself for only 1 tomes, not 2, while still advancing a bit in turn 1 thanks to all the places and replacements (around 7'') and still having 1 Ap to walk if needed (so up to around 13'' of going forward if needed; adding a Mobile toolkit that can be further boosted to Focused+5. (not sure if the lose of momentum is worth it, but that possibility is there).

Adding amina and adding fast, it may let it stack Focused +3 and have an extra action in the second activation, or stack Focused+2 in the first activation and then use all those Focused in the second activation (which may be the right call versus Armored/Incorporeal/Serene countereance/Terrifying enemies, specially if the Duet got extra Focused from the toolkit and a good target got swapped so it can use Focused in the 3 actions).

And I just realized "Sword Trick" works also in friendly models; the duet may be buffed until it reaches god mode, get buried to keep it safe (using Amina shielded to not damaging it), unbury that beast in the last activation using any enemy scheme marker and carve any enemy that happens to be around haha. I have to try this crew someday.

[Vangerdahast]

For a Reckoning game with Assassinate, Vendetta, Dig their Graves, I will certainly use some of your ideas (even if I am generaly reluctant to go out of keyword).

For other games, it seems to need so much set-up that I won't score my VP during that time. And I generally score fast to put pressure on my opponent's thoughts (a habit gained during tournaments and in M2E).

 

[Ogid]

Glad to know you are going to put those in good use . I do like going OOK, it makes me less predictable and there are a lot of interesting synergies and good counterpicks inside of each faction.

Yes, that's a lot of APs and models dedicated to carnage; it's not worth it unless you can get a few VPs out of that and put the other player behind at the same time. In more schemy pools, for 4SS a mobile toolkit may give the Duet some extra kill potential; more than that won't worth it if your plan is to run around all game scoring.

Take Prisioner/Detonate charges are also nice schemes for that kind of crew, you may slaughter the dangerous ones and keep one weakling alive to score (and Amina mele attack with slow and Colette swap are both quite good to score that); plus the duet gives an extra activation so Colette's crew will have the last activation unless something unactivated is killed. Claim Jump could also be a good pick if you are confident that can dominate the other crew. Vendetta is also good, but in that one it'd be better to start with 2 coryphees to be able to use the duet to bully a 7-8SS model.

[Vangerdahast]

 

Concerning the Toolkit, perhaps I will try to swap a Showgirl for it. And yes, I generally prefer running all around instead of killing. I play wargames and don't like killing.🤣

 

Generally, I try to self bury Colette in Turn 4 and activate her last in Turn 5 (using Pass Tokens and let the intiative to my opponent) in order to unbury her where I need. To score Take Prisoner or bury an opponent who has chosen Claim Jump, for example (many more tricks here).

 

[Ogid]

Hehe, nothing wrong with that; that's even meaner than killing, you run around scoring and robbing the game from all their ludicrous beaters 😂. If I would have to choose, my favourite styles would be control and alpha strike (but I think that last one is clear after all this duet min/maxing XD); but I like most playstiles tho.

About more tricks... I was wondering, is it useful "milking" doves for SS? With SS cache and a Showgirl she can trade 3 doves for 6SS (or 2 doves for 4SS); seducing Colette, getting the trigger and killing 1 dove in range of the SS cache aura. Doves seems useful, but 6SS in exange for a few showgirl action and not giving pass tokens to the other player could be good in some games (the full "combo" would need 3 showgirls actions, 3 tomes and probably 1 extra action to remove Colette's Distracted)

[Vangerdahast]

 

Concerning the Doves, I don't use them like that. Some other people have aleady suggested this use of the Doves. But for me, they essentially are unbury targets for Colette.

I generally hide them behind terrain and make them fly in the backlines of my opponent where Colette can unbury later (when all ennemy models are engaged) to score her own points or steal opponent's VP. For example, in Turf War by flipping an unguarded Strategy Marker to neutral then to friendly.

They are also good to kill a weakened ennemy. For example a Minion or an Enforcer with 1 or 2 Health left. The opponent generally doesn't want to cheat versus a stat 4 Attack and keep his high cards for other things.  And with the Overheat built-in Trigger you can kill a Hard to Kill model with 2 Health left. Already killed Taelor and Fuhatsu with Doves, for example. They can also go killing cheap summons like Tengu.

There is an easier way of getting 4 or 5 Soulsotnes a game with the Soulsotne Miner + Magical Training. And in the same time the Miner is still useful to score Vicotry Points. Not wasting AP is always good as they are one of your ressources to score victory points.

The more we discuss about Colette, the more it seems that there are different ways of playing her. Which is good for the Performer Keyword.

 

[Ogid]

Take in count I'm not really a Colette player; I'm more into her crew for the Coryphees/Mannequins that I'll use in the more agressive puppet crew, and also because I really considered ARC before settling up for NVB and Colette was one of the masters I really liked more (being Marcus the other one that more catched my eye). Funnily enough, I can play Marcus in NVB and also the Puppet part of Colette's crew using Hinamatsu or Widow Weaver as leaders

I'm just curious about some alternative ways to play the crew because those are the perks that can really catch other players off guard and give room to adapt to different scenarios. I agree that killing the doves won't be the right play most of the time (and very good point about the low defense H2K models!). But for example in an idols game where she also hired a good beater with SS cache, it may be a way to not giving the other player enough pass tokens to control the idols placement the whole game and empower that hire at the same time. But that would be a very niche case, not the standard play.

But yeah, I'd probably play a different Colette style; picking off a few important pieces with Presto-Chango + buffed beater would be in my book quite frecuently. But as you said, having different ways to play a crew it's very good for a keyword.

The kind of crew I had in mind for that dove slaughter theme crew in case you are curious:

• Colette, 3 Doves, Myranda (SSC), Rider (SSC), SS miner (MT), Arcane Effigy (EoF), Showgirl, 6SS.

Which again is quite far away from an standard Colette crew XD. Here I'd kill 2 doves for 4SS the first turn and would keep the other alive to be able to keep Colette mobile (removing distracted with the Emissary first). A sabertooth with SS cache and a good number of SS is a terror, specially with 4 APs thanks to the rider from turn 2; add to that a master able to keep up with it and control the few enemies able to really threaten it (or to misposition enemies/reposition him) and you have a very fun list concept. The original concept is explained here.

[Ogid]

I've noticed I didn't named him. Another model worth to be on the radar would be Joss.

His damage output is lower than others commented above, but being able to do irreducible damage (plus Ruthless) is what make him stand out. With Diesel engine he'll have 1 free to damage each turn (mind he can always disengage with Transfer Power), add again the mobile toolkit for some Focused/Power tokens and he can be a threat for henchmans, Masters and high armored targets.

The ofensive utility of Presto-Chango is nuts...

[AskM3L8r]

Ran Collette crew on a Parker crew. It was painful... Parker's crew kept stealing my markers. My opponent never got dig their graves and I never scored on Detonate the Charges. I denied the second Deliver the Message. My opponent denied my last plant explosives.

We tied at 6. At the end I earned two from Harness (hard earned)  and four from explosives . The Captain and Duet did the running. Parker Angelica and Collette did some dancing. Mad dog played hard to get with Cassandra and a show girl. 

[Vangerdahast]

@Ogid: Using a big card to Presto Chango an ennemy near my deployment zone is better for me as the ennemy is separated from his allies and you avoid any retaliation the next activation.

But you are more agressive than me. The two options are valid.

 

@AskM3L8r: I have a Parker player in my meta but still haven't got a game versus him. Versus Parker, I would avoid taking Schemes requiring Scheme Markers. I find that Detonate Charges is a difficult Scheme and never take it. Even with Parker stealing Markers you have managed to score twice Harness the Ley Line so it is possible. What were the other available Schemes?

Concerning Deliver the Message, I can confirm that the opponent will never score the second point if you can Bury Colette in Turn 4 (using Twist Ending Trigger on Sword Trick if need be), then unbury her last in Turn 5 where she can't be engaged. Or even bury her with Sword Trick on her last action of Turn 5, she will be killed at end of game but as long as Assassinate or Reckoning are not in play, it is not a problem.

You say that the Strategy was Plant Explosives and scored 4 points but you also say that your opponent denied last plant explosives. Dont sure to understand well. Can you explain a bit more?

 

[AskM3L8r]

@Vangerdahast

I'm still learning and miss spoke about the Plant Explosives.

• 1 I know we tied.

• 2 I planted 4 and Cass died holding the last one but my opponent wasn't close enough to claim it. They planted all of their explosives 

Dig their grave 0 point opponent 

Harness the leyline 2 points me

Deliver the message 1 point opponent 

Outflank 

Detonate the Charges  0 points me

Ironically I was sitting on Outflank position the whole time and regretted not taking it.

[Ogid]

25 minutes ago, Vangerdahast said:

Using a big card to Presto Chango an ennemy near my deployment zone is better for me as the ennemy is separated from his allies and you avoid any retaliation the next activation.

How did you set up this play? Do you keep Colette a bit behind, keep a dove in your deployment zone and when an enemy model get close use presto chango with the dove to throw it into your DZ? Or is there a better way?

[Vangerdahast]

@AskM3L8r: In this pool, I would have taken Outflank and Deliver a Message (even if the second point could have been difficult versus Parker).

 

@Ogid: Approximately what you said. Generaly I activate Doves first. So one Dove Walks once in order to be a bit out of deployment zone (3 or 4''). A model activates and moves in the middle of my table half  (if there is no big threat). Colette activates late in turn. She walks once and is in range of my target, then Presto Chango the target with the Dove. The target is 3 or 4'' of my deployment zone, so in chargge range of the Duet. The Duet activates last and charges and attack, split the Duet. The opponent has no models to activate or his model is too far away from the Duet. Reform the Duet and makes two attacks versus the target. If I have enough movement and the terrain permits it, Charge through with the Duet on each activation, for 1 free damage. The target should be dead by then. If not, win initiative turn 2 (cheating can be necessary), activate the Duet. Most of Minions and Enforcers can't survive to six attacks by the Duet (a good Hand helps a bit).

If Colette is not in range of the target with one walk, she Presto Chango herself with the friendly model who stands in the middle of my table half and she should be in range of the target. It requires a bit of positionning but I prefer it to slinging forward my Duet which can be then beaten by unactivated ennemy models.

Models I have killed this way: Teddy, Bishop, Peacekeeper, Talos, Mounted Guard, Queller, Executioner..... Not so bad for someone who don't like killing.XD

 

[extremor]

8 hours ago, Ogid said:

Take in count I'm not really a Colette player; I'm more into her crew for the Coryphees/Mannequins that I'll use in the more agressive puppet crew...

Hehe, I also play Colette and Hinamatsu (even sometimes Collodi). I really love to play Coryphee with Colette as a "dancing queen" spinning around hardly fighting any melee at all but also using coryphee aggressively in a puppet crew.