Damage timing and Demise (Raw meat)

[GrumpyGrandpa]

The damage timing-rules state that all models hit by a shockwave or blast must go through the same step at once, and then move on to the next step. 

Does this mean that if a Slop hauler and a pig dies to the same shockwave or blast, the Slop haulers Demise-abillity will heal the pig up, as seen on step 6.a.

[Ogid]

The after killing effects happens in the step 6.b; so it'd be after the 6.a; It doesn't seem that a healing effect after 6.a may stop a model for being killed.

And in fact it's not even clear if the healing would be applied in that moment or is queued until the timing ends. It had been discused in other threads but all comes to this rule from the same page than the damage timming (pg 34)

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SEQUENTIAL EFFECTS

Sometimes, an effect will create additional effects as it resolves.

In these cases, fully resolve the initial effect before moving onto any additional effect. Additional effects are then resolved in the order they were generated, after any effects which had been previously generated have resolved.

Effect isn't defined; so it's not clear if we must resolve the healing generated there (effect=that step of the damage timing) or if we must wait until the damage timing sequence is resolved (effect=damage, hence the entire damage sequence). I'm on the opinion it'd be resolved there, but it's not 100% clear.

[solkan]

1 hour ago, Ogid said:

The after killing effects happens in the step 6.b; so it'd be after the 6.a; It doesn't seem that a healing effect after 6.a may stop a model for being killed.

And in fact it's not even clear if the healing would be applied in that moment or is queued until the timing ends. It had been discused in other threads but all comes to this rule from the same page than the damage timming (pg 34)

Effect isn't defined; so it's not clear if we must resolve the healing generated there (effect=that step of the damage timing) or if we must wait until the damage timing sequence is resolved (effect=damage, hence the entire damage sequence). I'm on the opinion it'd be resolved there, but it's not 100% clear.

It's worth pointing out that the same argument "You shouldn't resolve that other effect (the pulse or healing) during the damage" would also logically require saying "None of the healing or replacement Demise effects actually work."  Or, really, any of the other damage timing steps.

That's aside from the whole matter that the last part of the Damage Timing sequence (which some would claim you're supposed to wait until after to resolve secondary effects like the pulses) involves removing the pulse generating model.  Which would result in all of those abilities like Demise(Explosive) having no effect.  

What Sequential Effects is trying to say is that if you have

Quote

Effect A.  Effect B.

specified (whether it's in an action or an ability), it's resolved as

Quote

Effect A.

Consequences of Effect A.

Effect B.

Consequences of Effect B.

except where Effect A or Effect B have specific and/or complicated timing sequences that say otherwise.

For heaven's sake, the Damage Timing sequence specifies that the various effects are resolved in a specific order, and at specific times, for a reason.  Some of the damage and death related sequences in M2E were basically a mess with effects ending up getting worded "After this model is killed, .... before removing it."  

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2 hours ago, GrumpyGrandpa said:

The damage timing-rules state that all models hit by a shockwave or blast must go through the same step at once, and then move on to the next step. 

Does this mean that if a Slop hauler and a pig dies to the same shockwave or blast, the Slop haulers Demise-abillity will heal the pig up, as seen on step 6.a.

I don't think this works in this situation.  For the Slop Hauler, that Demise effect is a Step 6, part C effect.

Step 6 part A was put in place to handle effects of the form of "After this model is killed, [stuff happens] and it Heals X" (lots of Demise effects) or "After some other model is killed, [stuff happens] and it heals X" (things like the Death Marshal Recruiter's Grim Recruitment).

In order for the Slop Hauler's Demise to save the pigs, you'd have to have the Slop Hauler at Step 6, part C and the Pigs at Step 6, part A.  That doesn't seem reasonable.

 

[Ogid]

mmm... thinking about it it's true in this case it's not complicated. As @solkan is saying it's a demise effect that's specified that is resolved there... I was thinking in the Lelu/Lilitu + Hayreddin BB splash one where the healing come from an ability triggered thanks to the pulse damage.

I'd love to see an FAQ/suplement with a few complicated examples resolved step by step, making clear which abilities are resolves and which are delayed and why... that would help a lot.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Sorry, I'm confused again.

(Assuming using the common resolve effects fully in damage timing method)...

When you resolve the demise in step 6c, it applies a heal to the friendly beast. The heal/killed rules say that if you heal after dying, you don't die.

Step 6A is not necessarily the ONLY time effects can negate death. That is when self-heal demise happens, but I am not clear what the reason is that other effects cannot happen in step 6B or 6C (assuming the fully resolve effects during damage timing)?

[Ogid]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Step 6A is not necessarily the ONLY time effects can negate death. That is when self-heal demise happens, but I am not clear what the reason is that other effects cannot happen in step 6B or 6C (assuming the fully resolve effects during damage timing)?

My reading: In the step 6 the model is killed and that will lead to the model being removed in step 6d unless something stops the timing before regardless of his Wds.

In 6a there are a way to negate that; in which case is no longer killed and the timing is "aborted" at that point. If the model missed that 6a step, the next 3 timing steps are just "bureaucracy" with no way to abort the timing. The following ones resolves some triggers and after killing effects (6b and 6c) and then in 6d the model is removed with no conditions (it doesn't say if it's at 0 wds or something like that; if the model reach 6d, it get removed from game).

In other discusions about this timing we were in step 5 (after damage effect). A model healed in step 5 won't be at 0 in step 6, so it won't be killed when it reachs that point.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, Ogid said:

My reading: In the step 6 the model is killed and that will lead to the model being removed in step 6d unless something stops the timing before regardless of his Wds.

In 6a there are a way to negate that; in which case is no longer killed and the timing is "aborted" at that point. If the model missed that 6a step, the next 3 timing steps are just "burocracy" with no way to abort the timing. The following ones resolves some triggers and after killing effects (6b and 6c) and then in 6d the model is removed with no conditions (it doesn't say if it's at 0 wds or something like that; if the model reach 6d, she get removed from game).

In other discusions about this timing we were in step 5 (after damage effect). A model healed in step 5 won't be at 0 in step 6, so it won't be killed when it reachs that point.

But page 25 says that if a model is healed after it is killed, it doesn't die (as a separate paragraph from the demise heal which references page 34 at the start of the killed section).

I'm missing the distinction. Unless the distinction is "it is a necessary assumption that you can't heal past step 6A or the game breaks a bit." That'd be reasonable (or at least, as reasonable as page 34 gets 😜 )

[Ogid]

I'd say the timing has higher priority than the general rules and as you said the game breaks if models can resolve after killing effects and drop corpses and then "reincarnate".

But as said above, that's my reading; it could work differently making the general rule overrule the timing (but again, it'd be odd imo)