Timing of effects. Butterfly Jump+Reposition vs Constant Motion+Jackhammer kick

[Ogid]

Just a sanity check, the rulebook tell us:

Quote

Sometimes, an effect will create additional effects as it resolves.
In these cases, fully resolve the initial effect before moving onto any additional effect. Additional effects are then resolved in the order they were generated, after any effects which had been previously generated have resolved.

My doubt is when are those effects added to the Queue.

For example:

• Butterfly jump reads "After resolving the enemy attack action targeting this model, this model may move 3''" 
• Reposition (trigger) reads: "Move this model up to 3''"

Both effects are resolved in the step 6 (actions) or C2F (turn). So is butterfly jump added to the queue as soon as an attack action targets the model or you wait until you reach the step 6/C2F to add it to the queue? So What do you have to resolve first, the trigger or the ability?

I believed that when an attack targets the model, Butterfly jump gets added to the queue, waiting for the attack to resolve... but after a second reading I'm not sure if the intention is that it is generated (and added to the queue) when it reach the moment when it may trigger...

 

Checking Mei Feng looking for insight, she has:

• Constant Motion: "Whenever this model declares a trigger, it may push 2'' after resolving the current action..." // Trigger declared in Step4E or C2D5, while resolved at step6 o C2F
• Jackhammer kick (Trigger): "Push the target 2'' away from this model then take this action again." // Resolved at step6 or C2F

So the intended functionality here clearly is: she attacks, gets the trigger, push the enemy and then follows with Constant motion... which means that even if the trigger is generated in the step4E, it doesn't get added to the queue until it's going to resolve (step6)... this way the player may choose the right order.

So... it seems that how this is supposed to be played is taking in count when the effects is going to resolve, not when it triggers? Because if this works like that the rule cited above is missleading.

 

Following the Mei Feng logic and going back to the above case, both Butterfly jump and reposition will try to resolve at the same time (step6 or C2F)... so we have to follow the rules:

Quote

Simultaneous Effects
Occasionally, an effect will generate multiple effects that occur at the same time. If this happens, they are resolved in the following order:

1. The Active player (or the player with Initiative, if there is no Active player) chooses one of their models with one or more unresolved effects and resolves those effects in whatever order they wish. Then, that player chooses another of their models with unresolved effects and resolves those effects in the same way, continuing in this manner until the player no longer has models with unresolved effects. When an effect resolves, the entire effect resolves (even if it also affects a model controlled by the non-Active player).
2. The non-Active player resolves any unresolved effects affecting their models, as described above.
3. Any remaining unresolved effects are resolved in an order determined by the Active player (or the player with Initiative, if there is no Active player). 

In this case, the active player must choose his model and resolve the trigger (reposition), and then the non-active player chooses his model and resolves Butterfly Jump

Is all the above correct? Any Thoughts?

Ty in advance!

[Adran]

I'm away from my rules and looking on a phone, so it's not a full answer, but one reason the rules you quoted might seem misleading is because you aren't quoting all the relevant rules. 

You are missing that Mei is creating a new action, and the rules for creating actions differ. 

[Ogid]

2 minutes ago, Adran said:

I'm away from my rules and looking on a phone, so it's not a full answer, but one reason the rules you quoted might seem misleading is because you aren't quoting all the relevant rules. 

You are missing that Mei is creating a new action, and the rules for creating actions differ. 

Yep, I need a helping hand here, these timings are my nemesis XD.

However the only thing that get saved until all gets resolved is the action, not the pushes. if this resolved in the order it is generated we would have:

• Mei Feng attacks, win the duel and declare the trigger in step 4E (constant motion queued), this generates the trigger (an after succeeding trigger that will get executed in step6), the action resolves in step 5 dealing damage.
• Step 6: Mei Feng resolves the first generated effect (constant motion) and push 2''
• Mei Feng resolves the second generated effect, the trigger (JKick) and push the target 2'' (ending him out of his engagement range unless the push is blocked by something), atack action queued after all is resolved.
• Mei Feng try to take the action againg but it fails because she isn't in engagement range.

So, if this is resolved this way, Mei Feng wouldn't work as intended; that's why I think the other way is the intended (it's that or that Mei Feng abilities has a problem with the timing)

[Adran]

I don't think constant motion will resolve untill after all other ( non action) effects are resolved. It's not an after resolving trigger.

[cbtb11235813]

13 minutes ago, Ogid said:

 

• Mei Feng attacks, win the duel and declare the trigger in step 4E (constant motion queued), this generates the trigger (an after succeeding trigger that will get executed in step6), the action resolves in step 5 dealing damage.
• Step 6: Mei Feng resolves the first generated effect (constant motion) and push 2''
• Mei Feng resolves the second generated effect, the trigger (JKick) and push the target 2'' (ending him out of his engagement range unless the push is blocked by something), atack action queued after all is resolved.
• Mei Feng try to take the action againg but it fails because she isn't in engagement range.

Since constant motion says "after resolving the current actions" which includes its triggers, it should happen in this order

1) Mei attacks, declares the trigger and adds the Constant motion to the cue to do after finishing this action (she would push now if not for the "after resolving the current action" clause), and succeeds. Resolve the main effect (damage)
2) Resolve Jackhammer kick, pushing the enemy, and adds the extra attack to the cue after this action is done
3) Resolve first post-action effect in cue, which was Constant Motion
4) Resolve the next post-action effect, which is the extra attack

[Ogid]

2 minutes ago, cbtb11235813 said:

Since constant motion says "after resolving the current actions" which includes its triggers, it should happen in this order

"After resolving the current action" doesn't include triggers with "after succeeding" like this one (check the timing in page 23 and 35 from the rulebook)

I'm applying the Mei Feng case (which we know how it is supposed to work; as you described she is supposed to use constant motion to keep up with the other guys), to the Butterfly jump + Reposition trigger (which I had dobuts about how it worked).

[Ogid]

37 minutes ago, Adran said:

I don't think constant motion will resolve untill after all other ( non action) effects are resolved. It's not an after resolving trigger.

But how we could know that? There is only 1 step where all these triggers happens (step6)... there isn't an step7 for special effects like this one, nor it's worded in any special way to tell us that it'll always be resolved last in step 6...

This can be resolved as expected (Mei Feng following the other model) if the effects are considered "generated" when they are going to affect the game. And as we don't have any formal definition of generate, extrapolate the Mei  Feng case is a good way to know how these are supposed to work (unless Mei Feng timing is mess up... but let's assume it's not).

 

But then in this rule "Generated" would mean "when they are going to get resolved"... which seems a valid reading, even when the way to write it a bit missleading:

Quote

Sometimes, an effect will create additional effects as it resolves.
In these cases, fully resolve the initial effect before moving onto any additional effect. Additional effects are then resolved in the order they were generated, after any effects which had been previously generated have resolved

I'm just following the rules until this point, but i'm not sure if this is how it is supposed to work.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Complicated question! I'd interpret it as this, from the perspective of Mei Feng (the active model)...

• Butterfly Jump: Generated at Step 6 (after resolving trigger) by enemy model.
• Reposition: Generated at Step 6 (after succeeding trigger) by attacking model (if the attacker was repositioning).
• Constant Motion: Ambiguous*, but I would say generated at step 6 by Mei Feng. Step 4e would also make sense.
• Jackhammer kick: Generated at step 6 (after succeeding trigger) by Mei Feng.

*Ambiguous because 'whenever' is not a defined term in Malifaux. If you generate the effect based on the 'whenever' word, step 4e is the answer I think. If you generate based on the 'after' word and make it an after resolving effect like other effects, you do it at step 6. In either case, it is only GENERATED at that point. It is resolved in step six.

I assume Reposition is a separate example and separate from Mei Feng attacking a Butterfly Jump model?

So then what happens?

• You hit step 6 and generate all the effects simultaneously (if you generated constant motion in step 4e, then it is first in the queue but resolved here).
• Mei Feng's controller chooses and orders her effects to be resolved (constant motion, and jackhammer kick) - page 34, simultaneous effects.
• Resolves all of these, moving herself, moving the enemy, and generating (but not resolving) a new attack. The new attack is generated here, but has to wait until all other effects are resolved (page 34, actions generated during other stuff).
• The enemy model orders their effects (butterfly jump) and then resolves them.
• All effects resolved, attack action resolves, but if the butterfly jump model has moved out of range, the attack fails.

So Mei Feng moves, possibly moves the enemy. Then the enemy model moves. Then the attack happens, but will probably fail unless Mei Feng pushed them into terrain or something so they can't jump away. EDIT: Note that Mei Feng can attack anyone with her trigger, so if any legal target is in range, she'll get another attack if she wishes.

EDIT 2: Whoa whoa whoa. I think that actually if the only legal target for Mei Feng to declare at this point is a friendly model, she MUST attack it if she declared the Jackhammer trigger. There's no may on declaring an attack, and you can only declare legal targets for an attack. If the only legal target is a friendly, she attacks it?

Reposition would be similar. If the attacking model has a reposition trigger, it gets generated at the same time as butterfly jump (and therefore resolves first since it is the active model).

[Ogid]

56 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

EDIT 2: Whoa whoa whoa. I think that actually if the only legal target for Mei Feng to declare at this point is a friendly model, she MUST attack it if she declared the Jackhammer trigger. There's no may on declaring an attack, and you can only declare legal targets for an attack. If the only legal target is a friendly, she attacks it?

Haha, it's hilarious but yep; if the other model flee, she will beat her own crewmate. She is a true Villain!