Doubt Stripped Skulkers

[Jos1001]

Does the action of the Stripped Skulkers allow them to move all the Fireteams from their unit to any part of the table, or does it only allow the Fireteam that uses the action to be moved, without leaving the formation distance?

[Sharpedge]

From our understanding, this may not place them "anywhere" unless there is only one fireteam in the unit. We thought that's why there's a crow trigger on the action - so that you can kill off fireteams until you only have one left and then Fade with that one to any other part of the table. If there is more than one, when you fade you can go "anywhere" but only insofar as you must remain in formation. That's how we've been playing it anyway - it seems to me that it would be incredibly powerful otherwise.

[MajorUndead]

The rulebook says, in the "place" subsection of movement :

Quote

Interaction with Squads When a Fireteam from a Squad is affected by a place effect, every Fireteam in the Squad is placed unless the effect specifically states otherwise (such as by saying “one Fireteam” or “only the targeted Fireteam”)

The striped skulkers' action says "Place this fireteam anywhere on the table".
Since it is not using any specific terms to say "only one", but is using the "basic" wording "place this fireteam", then I think that yes, it allows you to move all the fireteams in their unit.

I'm guessing the question might come from the second part of the action's description : "If there are any other fireteams in this unit, the fireteam must sill remain in formation"
To me this just means you can't use this placement to break formation.

[Jos1001]

1 hour ago, MajorUndead said:

: "If there are any other fireteams in this unit, the fireteam must sill remain in formation"

Yes, that phrase makes me doubt the Core rule. I thought that meant that you cant leave the formation

[MajorUndead]

If it's supposed to only place that one fireteam then IMO the action really really needs to be rephrased to follow the same wording as in the core rulebook exemples.

So something like "Place only this fireteam anywhere on the table" (you don't even need the part about staying in formation since the rulebook states in the "formation" section that a squad must remain in formation at all times)

[Jos1001]

10 hours ago, Sharpedge said:

From our understanding, this may not place them "anywhere" unless there is only one fireteam in the unit. We thought that's why there's a crow trigger on the action - so that you can kill off fireteams until you only have one left and then Fade with that one to any other part of the table. If there is more than one, when you fade you can go "anywhere" but only insofar as you must remain in formation. That's how we've been playing it anyway - it seems to me that it would be incredibly powerful otherwise.

Yes, that is what we are looking for in the games, when moving the whole squad, it is very easy to interact with markers. One fireteam performs the action, and another interacts. I find it more logical that the action can only be carried out when there is only one fireteam left in the pad, but as it puts in the other answer, in the core the general rule is to move the whole squad.

[solkan]

On 9/20/2019 at 7:05 PM, Jos1001 said:

Yes, that is what we are looking for in the games, when moving the whole squad, it is very easy to interact with markers. One fireteam performs the action, and another interacts. I find it more logical that the action can only be carried out when there is only one fireteam left in the pad, but as it puts in the other answer, in the core the general rule is to move the whole squad.

The core rulebook says to move the whole squad, but that’s essentially “unless otherwise specified” like the rest of the model special rules and actions.

At best, you’d move one fireteam in the Squad, and then place the other two fireteams in base contact with that fireteam (or in formation with it).  

[Sol_Sorrowsong]

On 9/20/2019 at 1:52 PM, MajorUndead said:

The rulebook says, in the "place" subsection of movement :

The striped skulkers' action says "Place this fireteam anywhere on the table".
Since it is not using any specific terms to say "only one", but is using the "basic" wording "place this fireteam", then I think that yes, it allows you to move all the fireteams in their unit.

I'm guessing the question might come from the second part of the action's description : "If there are any other fireteams in this unit, the fireteam must sill remain in formation"
To me this just means you can't use this placement to break formation.

I believe that the this in "place this fireteam anywhere on the table" is being specific.  (Bold is my own) It specifically is talking about the active fireteam in the squad.  The banner action can be taken by each fireteam and each can use it to place anywhere on the table.

HOWEVER, the caveat is the rule for maintaining formation, which means "anywhere on the table" (italic is my own) must adhere to remaining within 8" of the other fireteams in the unit. (I'm going on memory, I think its 8")

So what can you do?

IF 3 fireteams, a single fireteam must place within 8" of the other two.

IF 2 fireteams, a single fireteam must place within 8" of the other fireteam (a bit more maneuverability)

If 1 fireteam, it may place anywhere on the table. (I believe not into terrain however, I don't have rules in front of me)

What is it good for?

- Getting out of engagement to attack elsewhere or flee.

- To cross over impassible terrain or terrain with gaps blocked by another fireteam or too small to fit normally. (This is really great actually, you don't need LOS to remain in formation IIRC so you can sneak past areas the opponent would think are a natural barrier and suddenly "pop" out on the other side).

-Appear across the map near an objective to score next time (if only 1 fireteam)

 

Example strategy.

Striped skulkers eat one of their fireteams to gain glory.  They declare advance order for remaining two fireteams and the first moves up behind the edge of a tall cathedral. (On the other side are King's Empire infiltrators planning to mine the main road in front of the cathedral so the Krakinoi cannot assault easily). The second fireteam moves up and after completing the move order they use their banner action and succeed, declining the trigger. They then place themselves over the cathedral behind the infiltrators but within formation of the first fireteam. Then they lash out at the infiltrators, doing some damage.

Infiltrators now come to face the skulker fireteam instead of planting their mines and kill the threat.

...other skirmishes, krakinoi advance where mines would have been and eat the infiltrators..turn ends.

Next turn, the remaining fireteam uses the banner action and stealthfully make their way to a to "place" across the battlefield, out of the action for the moment, but near an objective thought previously secured by the King's forces who have advanced to deal with the krakinoi threat.  The skulkers declare the action to gain a token and choose a reinforcement token, ending their activation as they lie in wait.

[MajorUndead]

2 minutes ago, Sol_Sorrowsong said:

I believe that the this in "place this fireteam anywhere on the table" is being specific.  (Bold is my own) It specifically is talking about the active fireteam in the squad.  The banner action can be taken by each fireteam and each can use it to place anywhere on the table.

I understand this point of view but for me since the example in the rulebook are puting a big emphasis on only one fireteam (with "only target fireteam" for instance), and the skulkers rules didn't put as much emphasis, I wasn't sure this should be interpreted as "only this one".

I agree the rule as intended is very probably to move only 1 fireteam, because it could be too powerful otherwise, but I really think the whole "placing only 1 fireteam or whole squad" is unclear.

The thing is, any rule about placing a fireteam will always technically mention just one fireteam (otherwise the rule would mention the unit/squad, like the cult's portals).
For instance, the Frenzy's "toss around" trigger :

Quote

If the target is a non-Titan, place it into base contact with another Fireteam in this squad

Here again, there is no particular emphasis on placing only one fireteam.
But  it is talking about the target of the action, so it is talking about 1 fireteam.
So should we consider this to be "specifically stating otherwise" or not?

If not, then how do we know for sure what language is enough to mean only one fireteam, and what language isn't?

If so, if each time a rule is mentioning a fireteam (and not a whole unit), we consider it to be "specifically stating otherwise", then why is there a section in the rulebook saying "When a Fireteam from a Squad is affected by a place effect, every Fireteam in the Squad is placed" ?
Why not just have each rule either say place fireteam or place unit/place squad/place all fireteams in the squad.

I think it would be clearer if the rulebook's section is removed, and each rule with a place effect clearly states what should be impacted.

[Sol_Sorrowsong]

Perhaps the rulebook could clarify it more precisely, or list a complete set of keywords.  For what I believe is intended is that the original 

On 9/20/2019 at 1:52 PM, MajorUndead said:

(such as by saying “one Fireteam” or “only the targeted Fireteam”)

 does not limit the use only when it says "one" or "only the targeted" but uses them as examples "such as...".  

My meaning is therefore when they use wording like "place this fireteam" or "place it..(referring to target fireteam NOT unit)", those mentions are specifically quantifying the fireteam in the singular, which trumps the placement rule for all squads.

 

I hear you that the rule

1 hour ago, MajorUndead said:

"When a Fireteam from a Squad is affected by a place effect, every Fireteam in the Squad is placed"

seems strange when we're seeing more exceptions here, and that the above "place it" could also refer to a unit at other times and not a fireteam specifically, which causes us to look at other rules for the clarity we seek.  It isn't perfect, but should follow logically for the most part.

This may be an area with the most trouble since placement is key for both GH and BM allegiances. The rulebook rule I'm certain is in place due to portal usage, but why it became the standard instead of the exception itself, I do not know.