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Maniacal_cackle

Zoraida's obey with Dreamer's summons - timing of placement?

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Is there a consensus on the timing of one of Dreamer's summons landing if Zoraida's obey is the failed willpower effect? At a guess, the timing would be:

  • Enemy fails willpower duel, which generates the placement effect for the summon. However, as an 'after resolving' effect, it resolves after the action finishes resolving.
  • The obey action proceeds to resolve its effect, which generates an action on the obeyed model. The action doesn't happen until ALL other effects are finished resolving (page 34, actions generated by actions).
  • Resolve triggers for obey (either dealing 2 damage and giving fast, or generating another action). if this generates another action, it can't happen until everything else (including the previous action) is resolved.
  • Obey is finished resolving, with one effect (dreamer summon placement) and 1-2 actions (from obey) waiting to take place.
  • Dreamer summon placement resolves (and if it is an alp, generates an additional attack action).
  • Action(s) generated by obey are resolved,
  • Resolve the alp attack action if applicable (although the enemy may no longer be in range if you moved it with obey).

Is this correct? Does this also mean that if you are using a movement effect on the obeyed model, you can't charge (because the summoned model is now engaging it), and you can't walk out of the summoned model's engagement?

It'd be wayyyy stronger if you can charge with the controlled model and then drop the summon, but from the ordering of the rules it looks like the summon effect has to place before the charge?

Relevant abilities:

Dreamer summon placement: After an enemy model fails a Wp duel... one model with this ability may unbury in base contact with the enemy model after resolving the current action.

Zoraida obey: Target model takes a non-bonus Action that does not Attach Upgrades or list a model by name, chosen and controlled by this model.

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And would I be correct in thinking that it does NOT work this way for Lure or Terrorize, as they simply move a model rather than giving it an action?

Lure: Move the target its Mv toward this model.

Terrorize: Target is Pushed its Mv in inches away from this model.

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As far as I can see You're right.

The model is placed before the obeyed model gets to take an action, but it would be placed after a model has moved towards you in a lure.

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11 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Is there a consensus on the timing of one of Dreamer's summons landing if Zoraida's obey is the failed willpower effect? At a guess, the timing would be:

  • Enemy fails willpower duel, which generates the placement effect for the summon. However, as an 'after resolving' effect, it resolves after the action finishes resolving.
  • The obey action proceeds to resolve its effect, which generates an action on the obeyed model. The action doesn't happen until ALL other effects are finished resolving (page 34, actions generated by actions).
  • Resolve triggers for obey (either dealing 2 damage and giving fast, or generating another action). if this generates another action, it can't happen until everything else (including the previous action) is resolved.
  • Obey is finished resolving, with one effect (dreamer summon placement) and 1-2 actions (from obey) waiting to take place.
  • Dreamer summon placement resolves (and if it is an alp, generates an additional attack action).
  • Action(s) generated by obey are resolved,
  • Resolve the alp attack action if applicable (although the enemy may no longer be in range if you moved it with obey).

Is this correct? Does this also mean that if you are using a movement effect on the obeyed model, you can't charge (because the summoned model is now engaging it), and you can't walk out of the summoned model's engagement?

A few important points:

1.  The generated actions get resolved in the order that they've been generated after step 2.e.

2.  "After resolving" effects (whether it's an ability or an "After resolving" trigger or an "After succeeding" trigger) all get thrown into step 2.f as equals.

So what you get is:

  • Zoraida uses Obey 
    • Enemy fails willpower duel, this puts the Dreamer summon placement on the list of effects to resolve when you get to 2.f.
    • Obey action generates an Action.  The action gets put in queue.
    • Now you're at 2.f.  If Zoraida declared a trigger (both Ensorcel and Burn Out are "After Succeeding" triggers) they're simultaneous with the Dreamer summoning unbury.  If an Alp gets unburied and its Made to Kill ability goes off, that action gets put in the Action queue, so you need to decide what order you're going to want those actions.  
  • Start resolving the queued actions.  The Obey-generated action is going to be the first action in the queue. 

If you were planning on making the Obey'd model, being able to Charge while engaged is a really rare capability.  But the part where it says

Quote

f.  Anything that happens after an Action is resolved, including any After Resolving and After Succeeding Triggers. Remember: Triggers that do not specify a timing are assumed to be After Succeeding Triggers.

does at least give you choices concerning the sequencing.

If you were using Obey to kill someone right next to the obeyed model and were trying to give the Alp the finishing blow, you'd at least have choices between:

  1. Obey-generated action
  2. Alp attack
  3. Ensorcel-generated action

and

  1. Obey-generated action
  2. Ensorcel-generated action
  3. Alp attack

 

 

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13 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:
  • Obey is finished resolving, with one effect (dreamer summon placement) and 1-2 actions (from obey) waiting to take place.
  • Dreamer summon placement resolves (and if it is an alp, generates an additional attack action).
  • Action(s) generated by obey are resolved,
  • Resolve the alp attack action if applicable (although the enemy may no longer be in range if you moved it with obey).

I'm curious about this bit.

Both the controled action and attack action from an alph are queued to be resolved at the same time (after the obey action is resolved). Could the Dreamer's player choose to resolve first the Alph attack or there is something forcing him to do it in that particular order?

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9 hours ago, Ogid said:

I'm curious about this bit.

Both the controled action and attack action from an alph are queued to be resolved at the same time (after the obey action is resolved). Could the Dreamer's player choose to resolve first the Alph attack or there is something forcing him to do it in that particular order?

Second sentence/paragraph of Actions Generated by Effects is what makes the actions sequence in the order that they’re generated.  Because they’re not just “after the previous action is resolved” but it goes on to add “but before any other new Action can be taken.”  That last part forces the order:  When you generate the first action, it has to be resolved before “any other new Action can be taken”.  And then the next new Action does the same for any that follow it.

 

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5 hours ago, solkan said:

Second sentence/paragraph of Actions Generated by Effects is what makes the actions sequence in the order that they’re generated.  Because they’re not just “after the previous action is resolved” but it goes on to add “but before any other new Action can be taken.”  That last part forces the order:  When you generate the first action, it has to be resolved before “any other new Action can be taken”.  And then the next new Action does the same for any that follow it.

Perfect, that was the bit I was missing!

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