Red-And-Black Joker Flip and Cheating

[Kharnage]

A Young Nephilim attacks a Beckoner. The Beckoner flips an ace for a total of 5, but the Young flips the red joker and the black joker to hit, for a total of 5. The RAW reads
"The Jokers affect the ways in which a player can Cheat Fate. A player cannot Cheat Fate if they flipped the Black Joker. Additionally, if their opponent flipped the Red Joker on an opposed duel, they cannot Cheat Fate on their own flip."
The only black-and-red clarification that I can find is "As long as the Black Joker is not also revealed, the Red Joker may always be chosen during a flip, even if there are one or more cards revealed because of - Fate Modifiers."
So my question is, can the beckoner cheat to dodge the young's total attack of 5, or can she not, because the young also flipped the red, even though he must take the black?

EDIT: Changed guard patrol to beckoner because I can't read.

[trikk]

21 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

A Young Nephilim attacks a Guard Patrol. The guardsman flips an ace for a total of 5, but the Young flips the red joker and the black joker to hit, for a total of 5. The RAW reads
"The Jokers affect the ways in which a player can Cheat Fate. A player cannot Cheat Fate if they flipped the Black Joker. Additionally, if their opponent flipped the Red Joker on an opposed duel, they cannot Cheat Fate on their own flip."
The only black-and-red clarification that I can find is "As long as the Black Joker is not also revealed, the Red Joker may always be chosen during a flip, even if there are one or more cards revealed because of - Fate Modifiers."
So my question is, can the guardsman cheat to dodge the young's total attack of 5, or can he not, because the young also flipped the red, even though he must take the black?

Guard Patrol has a Df5, so he has a total 6 so he wins. Did I solve that for you ?

 

On a serious note., the BJ stays in the conflict and RJ is discarded so I'd assume since you discard the RJ, the opponent can cheat.

[solkan]

1 hour ago, Kharnage said:

A Young Nephilim attacks a Beckoner. The Beckoner flips an ace for a total of 5, but the Young flips the red joker and the black joker to hit, for a total of 5. The RAW reads
"The Jokers affect the ways in which a player can Cheat Fate. A player cannot Cheat Fate if they flipped the Black Joker. Additionally, if their opponent flipped the Red Joker on an opposed duel, they cannot Cheat Fate on their own flip."
The only black-and-red clarification that I can find is "As long as the Black Joker is not also revealed, the Red Joker may always be chosen during a flip, even if there are one or more cards revealed because of - Fate Modifiers."
So my question is, can the beckoner cheat to dodge the young's total attack of 5, or can she not, because the young also flipped the red, even though he must take the black?

EDIT: Changed guard patrol to beckoner because I can't read.

You’re conflating “flipping” and “revealing”.

Have another read through the Fate Modifier rules.  Your first sentence:

Quote

The Beckoner flips an ace for a total of 5, but the Young flips the red joker and the black joker to hit, for a total of 5.

is factually (per the rules as written) incorrect.  What you should have written is this:

Quote

... the Young reveals the red joker and the black joker.

As per the Fate Modifier (paragraph five) you are forced to choose the black joker and the red joker is discarded.  Thus the black joker has been chosen, and is the card that was flipped.

See, for example, the last paragraph of the Fate Modifiers rules.  That is also why Cheating Fate only talks about “flipping a card” in the singular.

Edit:  Please note that once upon a time, a group of beta testers badgered the developers for this wording change.  

[TheUnseemlyOne]

I think page 8 Under Flips and page 9 under Fate Modifiers answers this.  

For a flip you reveal the top card of the deck and then add it to the conflict.  

Fate modifiers cause multiple cards to be revealed, but only one is placed in the conflict and any others are discarded.  

The way the jokers are written, they only add their effect if added to the conflict. 

[Kharnage]

20 minutes ago, solkan said:

As per the Fate Modifier (paragraph five) you are forced to choose the black joker and the red joker is discarded.  Thus the black joker has been chosen, and is the card that was flipped.

 

I disagree here. You're confusing being flipped for being placed into conflict. For example, for reflipping cards, the Core rules say this:
"Sometimes, an effect will instruct a player to “reflip” one or more cards. When this occurs, the player discards the originally flipped card(s) and flips a new card from their Fate Deck"
This clearly implies that multiple cards can be flipped for a single duel, whether they're placed into the conflict or not is irrelevant; they're flipped. 
This matters greatly for Jakob Lynch's Trump Cards as well, since aces being "flipped" granting Brilliance Tokens goes from decent to complete garbage depending on the prevailing interpretation here.

EDIT: Additional proof of "flip" being multiple cards, not the cards in conflict; the wording on maximum number of cards you can reveal:
"You may never reveal more than four cards as the result of Fate Modifiers. Any additional cards that would result from Fate Modifiers are not flipped."

[solkan]

34 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

I disagree here. You're confusing being flipped for being placed into conflict. For example, for reflipping cards, the Core rules say this:
"Sometimes, an effect will instruct a player to “reflip” one or more cards. When this occurs, the player discards the originally flipped card(s) and flips a new card from their Fate Deck"
This clearly implies that multiple cards can be flipped for a single duel, whether they're placed into the conflict or not is irrelevant; they're flipped. 
This matters greatly for Jakob Lynch's Trump Cards as well, since aces being "flipped" granting Brilliance Tokens goes from decent to complete garbage depending on the prevailing interpretation here.

EDIT: Additional proof of "flip" being multiple cards, not the cards in conflict; the wording on maximum number of cards you can reveal:
"You may never reveal more than four cards as the result of Fate Modifiers. Any additional cards that would result from Fate Modifiers are not flipped."

I’m just going to be blunt and honest.  You don’t have any reason to believe me, and I can’t tell you how I know this to be the case.

You’re trying to read into two editorial oversights an interpretation that isn’t intended.

 But please for a moment consider this case: 

You have a double positive fate modifier.  You turn over three cards.  If those cards are all “flipped”, why aren’t you able to cheat those cards directly?

 

[Kharnage]

7 minutes ago, solkan said:

You have a double positive fate modifier.  You turn over three cards.  If those cards are all “flipped”, why aren’t you able to cheat those cards directly?

I'm not sure what you mean by "cheat those cards directly"? Can you clarify?

[Kharnage]

The "Editorial Oversights" continue in the example about duels with Basse and Pandora, with the following quotes:
"As this duel has only a TN, it is a simple duel and only requires Basse to flip cards and make decisions." A single, simple duel, if your interpretation of only cards chosen in conflict count as 'flipped', would have read "Requires Basse to flip a card" even if he burns a soulstone as he does in the example. 
Later in the example: "Neither model chooses to use Soulstones, so they each flip a single card." There's no point in specifying a single card, if you can only ever count as flipping a single card. 4 Editorial oversights in the final print concerning whether or not you "flip" multiple cards is a bit much. If they wanted it to function as you say, they had plenty of opportunity to clarify that. But they actually go so far as to clarify *against* that.