Steamroller vs Hazardous terrain markers

[Da Git]

So if the Lucky Emissary uses Steamroller to push through some markers that count as Hazardous Terrain (think Pyre Markers, Pit Traps, etc), does it take the Hazardous effects or is the marker removed during the action so is no longer there to deal its effects? 

Cheers! 

[santaclaws01]

9 hours ago, Garthuk said:

"If this Push is interrupted by Impassable Destructible Terrain, that terrain is removed, this model suffers 2 damage, and the Push continues."

But it is not. There is first a clause for interruption from Destructible Terrain, then a clause for interruption from Impassable.

And now if it Steamrolls into just impassable terrain nothing extra happens, because it is not Destructible, Impassable terrain.

9 hours ago, Garthuk said:

If the only terrain that would ever Interrupt is the combination of Impassable Destructible it could have very easily been worded:

If you're so adamant that something other than impassable terrain can interrupt a push, cite the rules for it.

9 hours ago, Garthuk said:

If the model were to Steamroll a Pit Trap Marker would it not remove that terrain and continue the Push?

No, as pit trap markers do not interrupt a push.

9 hours ago, Garthuk said:

Interrupting stops a model at base contact. The interruption precedes the terrain removal, which precedes the Push continuing.

For example: The LE Steamrolls a Pit Trap Marker. It would Push to the terrain, interrupt here, remove the Destructible Terrain, then continue.

For the LE Steamrolls an Ice Pillar: It would Push to the terrain, interrupt here, remove the Destructible Terrain, suffer 2 damage, then continue.

Yes, if that's how interrupting a push works(it's not) that's what would happen in both cases. Still, what point are you trying to make by bringing that up.

 

5 hours ago, Ogid said:

Until it's defined the safest bet (imo) is assume interrupting the movement is not enough to trigger Hazardous as it's not explicitly stated.

It is defined. Coming into base contact is neither moving through nor resolving an action while in the terrain. Hazardous doesn't need to list every way a model can *not* be affected by hazardous terrain, just the ways it can be affected. If a model is doing something that isn't one of the methods to be affected by hazardous terrain, it doesn't get affected by hazardous terrain.

 

5 hours ago, Ogid said:

If there is any marker that are at the same time impassable AND hazardous, the above will need a clarification.

Unless a model releases that is able to add the hazardous trait to already existing terrain or something like that, not going to happen as impassable renders hazardous useless except for moving markers.

[Garthuk]

I am adamant because the ability appears to be at odds with the core of whether or not Destructible Terrain iterrupts a Push. It inserts "interrupted by Destructible Terrain" in its own enclosed sentence regardless of that trigger not being possible on its own in the core rules.

Interrupt does not have its own section in the rules to cite. It is only mentioned in page 5 in regards to a pushed model encountering another model or Impassable Terrain, stating the movement stops. The location it stops is in base contact because (p14) models cannot end movement with their base overlapping another model's, and (pg 37) models cannot move through Impassable Terrain, and the lack of a measured distance given.

        Pg3 Breaking The Rules: "Models in Malifaux have many unique rules that override the core rules. When a special rule explicitly contradicts the core rules, follow the special rule rather than the core rule."

The ability adds an interaction that does not occur in the core: Push being interrupted by Destructible Terrain.

I am not trying to say Destructible Terrain would Interrupt outside of this ability.

Why I understand it that way is because the ability gives an instruction on what to do if the Push is interrupted by Destructible Terrain before giving a separate instruction on what to do if the Push is interrupted by Impassable Terrain. That order implies it to be possible for Destructible Terrain that is not also Impassable to be able to interrupt the Push.

It is written:

        "If this Push is interrupted by Destructible Terrain, remove that terrain and the Push continues. If this Push is interrupted by Impassable Terrain, this model suffers 2 damage."

Not:

        "If this Push is interrupted by Impassable Terrain, this model suffers 2 damage. If that terrain is also Destructible, that terrain is removed and the Push continues."

 

The point I am trying to make for the timing is that the model does remove Destructible Terrain when in base contact before continuing to Push. It makes the difference between recieving Hazardous from Destructible Terrain like Pit Traps or removing the terrain before the model would enter it.

Steamroller:

        1. "Push this model 12" in any direction."

Model attempts to push 12".

        2.  "If this Push is interrupted by Destructible Terrain, remove that terrain and continue the Push."

Checks for Pushed model encountering Destructible Terrain. If yes: the Push is interrupted, the relevant terrain is removed, and the model is instructed to continue the Push. If no: no trigger.

        3. "If this Push is interrupted by Impassable Terrain,  this model suffers 2 damage."

Checks for Pushed model encountering Impassable Terrain. If yes: the Push is interrupted and the model suffers 2 damage. If no: no trigger.

        4."Then, remove every Marker this model came into base with during this Push."

Push ends. Relevant Markers that were not already removed by the second clause are removed at this time. Action Ends.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Part of the problem is that Malifaux doesn't typically define game terms.

The sentence:

Quote

If a Pushed model encounters another model or Impassable Terrain during this movement, its movement is interrupted and stops

Does not (necessarily) define interrupt as a game term. It does outline one instance of what happens with interruptions in a particular scenario, but that does not rule out other uses of the word as well. It'd be nice if Malifaux was developed enough as a game to have a glossary of defined terms, but I imagine that is several more years off at least.

That said, on the face of it, interpreting the ability as not being harmed by hazardous terrain as you roll through it is pretty bizarre.

If you're not accepting the definition of interrupt meaning "the model stops", why are you assuming that the model stops for your definition of interrupt? You've taken half the definition provided in the above quote and ignored the other half.

[santaclaws01]

2 hours ago, Garthuk said:

I am adamant because the ability appears to be at odds with the core of whether or not Destructible Terrain iterrupts a Push. It inserts "interrupted by Destructible Terrain" in its own enclosed sentence regardless of that trigger not being possible on its own in the core rules.

Because it needs to be as it gives an effect to the action that is separate from the effect given by the impassable trait. It is not at odds with the rules.

2 hours ago, Garthuk said:

Interrupt does not have its own section in the rules to cite. It is only mentioned in page 5 in regards to a pushed model encountering another model or Impassable Terrain, stating the movement stops. The location it stops is in base contact because (p14) models cannot end movement with their base overlapping another model's, and (pg 37) models cannot move through Impassable Terrain, and the lack of a measured distance given.

And the fact that the only time the rules tell you a push can be interrupted is by impassable terrain and models, that means nothing else is able to interrupt a push.

2 hours ago, Garthuk said:

The ability adds an interaction that does not occur in the core: Push being interrupted by Destructible Terrain.

No, it does not.

2 hours ago, Garthuk said:

Why I understand it that way is because the ability gives an instruction on what to do if the Push is interrupted by Destructible Terrain before giving a separate instruction on what to do if the Push is interrupted by Impassable Terrain. That order implies it to be possible for Destructible Terrain that is not also Impassable to be able to interrupt the Push.

The order does not imply that, at all. That is 100% you.

2 hours ago, Garthuk said:

It is written:

        "If this Push would be interrupted by Destructible Terrain, remove that terrain and the Push continues. If this Push would be interrupted by Impassable Terrain, this model suffers 2 damage."

Firstly there's no "would", I don't know why you're adding that word in. The action doesn't check it's path before starting to resolve.

2 hours ago, Garthuk said:

Not:

        "If this Push would be interrupted by Impassable Terrain, this model suffers 2 damage. If that terrain is also Destructible, that terrain is removed and the Push continues."

You're making a distinction without a difference. 

2 hours ago, Garthuk said:

The point I am trying to make for the timing is that the model does remove Destructible Terrain when in base contact before continuing to Push. It makes the difference between recieving Hazardous from Destructible Terrain like Pit Traps or removing the terrain before the model would enter it.

Except destructible terrain can't interrupt a push on it's own. Nor does this action break the rules to allow such an interaction as there is no explicit contradiction, or an implicit one for that matter.

 

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Part of the problem is that Malifaux doesn't typically define game terms.

It absolutely does. That's what makes it a game term.

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Does not (necessarily) define interrupt as a game term. It does outline one instance of what happens with interruptions in a particular scenario, but that does not rule out other uses of the word as well. It'd be nice if Malifaux was developed enough as a game to have a glossary of defined terms, but I imagine that is several more years off at least.

That rule tells what happens when a push meets impassable terrain or a model. It defines that interaction as the push being interrupted. Anything that is not that interaction is not a push being interrupted.

[Ogid]

@Garthuk The key in that wording is "If this Push is interrupted". These "stop, remove marker and continue the push" only triggers if the push is interrupted, being push into a pit trap doesn't interrupt that push.

What the rulebook say about interrupts is this:

Quote

If a pushed model encounter other model or impassable terrain, it's movement is interrupted and stops.

So the ability in a pinch is this:

Quote

Steamroller: "Push this model 12'' in any direction. (...). Then, remove every Marker this model came into base contact with during this Push."

The (...) part covers what happens if the push gets interrupted (aka, it runs into a model or impassable terrain); if the push is not interrupted then the above is the relevant part.

[Maniacal_cackle]

@santaclaws01 I think we both arrive at the same conclusion on this one anyway, but since this comes up a lot...

Here is an example of what I think a defined game term looks like (from MTG)

Quote

702.15. Lifelink

702.15a Lifelink is a static ability.

702.15b Damage dealt by a source with lifelink causes that source’s controller, or its owner if it has no controller, to gain that much life (in addition to any other results that damage causes). See rule 120.3.

702.15c If a permanent leaves the battlefield before an effect causes it to deal damage, its last known information is used to determine whether it had lifelink.

702.15d The lifelink rules function no matter what zone an object with lifelink deals damage from.

702.15e If multiple sources with lifelink deal damage at the same time, they cause separate life gain events (see rules 119.9–10).

Example: A player controls Ajani’s Pridemate, which reads “Whenever you gain life, put a +1/+1 counter on Ajani’s Pridemate,” and two creatures with lifelink. The creatures with lifelink deal combat damage simultaneously. Ajani’s Pridemate’s ability triggers twice.

702.15f Multiple instances of lifelink on the same object are redundant.

Malifaux doesn't rigorously define game terms to the point they could be put in a glossary. It instead illustrates what happens in particular scenarios, and we are left to extrapolate from there.

So some confusion is understandable. The rules here aren't as ironclad (which is fine, it is a different type of game).

[Garthuk]

It would be much easier to understand if the action did not give an instruction for a terrain interaction that does not exist on its own directly before the instruction that would allow it to have meaning. That is why the order seems to me to have significance.

Even simply switching the middle two sentences would clear that up by putting an instruction for a terrain interaction that does exist on its own before one that doesn't. That is why it seems to me that the order breaks rules of when a Push would be interrupted, by inserting a new instance before an existing one.

But the consensus seems to be that:

Steamroller:

        1. "Push this model 12" in any direction."

        2. "If this Push is interrupted by Destructible Terrain, that terrain is removed and the Push continues."

        3. "If this Push is interrupted by Impassable Terrain, this model suffers 2 damage."

        4." Then, remove every Marker this model came into base contact with during this Push."

Boils to:

        1. Attempt to Push 12"

        2. Ignore until 3.

        3. Suffer Two damage (if relevant). Resolve 2 (if relevant).

        4. Remove relevant Markers.

Yes?

[Maniacal_cackle]

31 minutes ago, Garthuk said:

It would be much easier to understand if the action did not give an instruction for a terrain interaction that does not exist on its own directly before the instruction that would allow it to have meaning. That is why the order seems to me to have significance.

Even simply switching the middle two sentences would clear that up by putting an instruction for a terrain interaction that does exist on its own before one that doesn't. That is why it seems to me that the order breaks rules of when a Push would be interrupted, by inserting a new instance before an existing one.

But the consensus seems to be that:

Steamroller:

        1. "Push this model 12" in any direction."

        2. "If this Push is interrupted by Destructible Terrain, that terrain is removed and the Push continues."

        3. "If this Push is interrupted by Impassable Terrain, this model suffers 2 damage."

        4." Then, remove every Marker this model came into base contact with during this Push."

Boils to:

        1. Attempt to Push 12"

        2. Ignore until 3.

        3. Suffer Two damage (if relevant). Resolve 2 (if relevant).

        4. Remove relevant Markers.

Yes?

Workable enough!

It is clunky with how it is worded, but basically the designers seemed to need to differentiate between impassable terrain (stop and take 2 damage) and destructible impassable terrain (stop, take 2 damage, keep going). That's always going to be a bit clunky!

[santaclaws01]

2 hours ago, Garthuk said:

        2. Ignore until 3.

        3. Suffer Two damage (if relevant). Resolve 2 (if relevant).

No. You resolve for the destructible trait first. There's to resolve for impassable first. If the push is interrupted you resolve for the destructible trait in applicable, then you resolve for the impassable trait if applicable.

[Garthuk]

3 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

It is clunky with how it is worded, but basically the designers seemed to need to differentiate between impassable terrain (stop and take 2 damage) and destructible impassable terrain (stop, take 2 damage, keep going). That's always going to be a bit clunky!

 

1 hour ago, santaclaws01 said:

If the push is interrupted you resolve for the destructible trait in applicable, then you resolve for the impassable trait if applicable.

Understood. Thank you for clearing my confusion.

[Ogid]

Just to check it's all clear.

Let's say the emissary steamroller goes through a Pyre Marker (Hazardous (Burning+1)), Pit Trap (Destructible, Severe, Hazardous (Damage 1 and Injured +1)), Ice Pilar (Ht 4, Blocking, Destructible, Impassable) and try to push into a Building (Ht 3, Impassable).

How many Wds and Conditions does it take?

 

Burning +1, Injured +1, 3 Damage (1 from Pit Trap, 1 From Ice Pilar, 1 from Building; damage from Ice pilar and Building reduced from 2 to 1 thanks to Armor)

It ends in base to base with the Building.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 hour ago, Ogid said:

Just to check it's all clear.

Let's say the emissary steamroller goes through a Pyre Marker (Hazardous (Burning+1)), Pit Trap (Destructible, Severe, Hazardous (Damage 1 and Injured +1)), Ice Pilar (Ht 4, Blocking, Destructible, Impassable) and try to push into a Building (Ht 3, Impassable).

How many Wds and Conditions does it take?

  Reveal hidden contents

Burning +1, Injured +1, 3 Damage (1 from Pit Trap, 1 From Ice Pilar, 1 from Building; damage from Ice pilar and Building reduced from 2 to 1 thanks to Armor)

It ends in base to base with the Building.

I'd read it as:

• Move to ice pillar
• Remove it
• Keep going until building.
• Stop.
• Take 2 damage (covers both interrupts).
• Remove the markers
• Take all the hazardous

[Ogid]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I'd read it as:

• Move to ice pillar
• Remove it
• Keep going until building.
• Stop.
• Take 2 damage (covers both interrupts).
• Remove the markers
• Take all the hazardous

Close enough, no difference in the important part (damage and conditions the model take), but this would be closer to RAW:

• Push through all the non-impassable markers.
• Push to Ice Pilar (push stops).
• Remove Ice Pilar.
• Take 2 damage (reduced to 1).
• Continue Push.
• Push to building (push stops)
• Take 2 damage (reduced to 1).
• Remove all markers.
• Action ends.
• Model suffer all the Hazardous.