Zoraida vs Stealth

[Linar]

Hi guys,

Suppose that Zoraida uses the Eyes of Night ability. And use obey to a target to more than 6" of her but less than 6" of the ally she uses as a beacon.

Could she target him?Or could not because it´s more than 6" from her?

[Adran]

On a strict reading of Stealth at the moment, the model taking the action has to be within 6" of the model, regardless of how they are drawing LOS or range, because stealth doesn't actually affect either of those 2 things.

Stealth: Enemy models cannot target this model from more than 6" away.

If the Action requires a target, the target must be
declared at this step. The target must be within the
Action’s range as well as within Line of Sight of the
model taking the Action, unless specified otherwise. (Page 23 targeting)

 

I read this as saying that the target has to be in range and line of the model taking the action to be a legal target unless otherwise specified. Zoraida says she can draw range and line of sight from another model.  Targeting a model is not the same as drawing line of sight to a model or drawing range to a model.

Stealth adds an extra bit on that the model taking the action has to be within 6". This strictly isn't reducing the range of the action (although it could have been worded that way) but instead adding an extra requirement.

 

This does mean you can draw a range greater than 6" from another model as long as Zoraida is within 6" of the target.

 

This may well not be the intent, but on the current wording of the rules Stealth will apply to the model taking the action because that is the model that is targeting.

Edit- since people are reacting to this thread 4years after it finished. The Faq has given a definitive answer, if the model you are drawing range from is within 6" then stealth doesn't apply.

[Kadeton]

A bit convoluted due to Stealth's sloppy wording, but I would say:

Since Stealth talks about a distance in relation to targeting, that means we're dealing with a restriction that occurs when measuring range.

Eyes in the Night allows Zoraida to measure range from certain other models.

If Zoraida is measuring range from another model, and that model is within 6" of her target, then she has targeted that model from within 6". Stealth should not apply.

Edit: You know it's a doozy of a question when the mods disagree on the rules interpretation!

I think this portion of @Adran's answer is interesting: "Targeting a model is not the same as drawing line of sight to a model or drawing range to a model." It got me wondering whether that difference (whether or not it exists) actually matters in this case.

If Eyes in the Night instead said "This model may target its non- Actions from friendly Swampfiends blah blah" then I doubt this would be an issue needing much discussion. That reads awkwardly, so I can see why the designers didn't go with that style of wording, instead opting for the more explicit "draw LoS and range". But the semantic difference is slim at best - to target means to announce, and then to check LoS and range. The question of whether Stealth's limitation is intended to be checked as part of range, or separately, is key here.

(There is also, to my mind, the issue of "What do these abilities represent within the world of the game?" Stealth means you can't be seen from far away, Eyes in the Night means Zoraida can see through the eyes of other creatures. If those creatures are close enough to see the Stealthy enemy, it feels like Zoraida should be able to see them too.)

[Jesy Blue]

As much as I was for letting Eyes of Night work, Targeting is neither Range nor Line of Sight.

Stealth overrules.

[Tapdancer]

You raise an interesting point.  Range is measured from Swamp fiend I'd argue; the range from Zoraida is irrelevant.  Wording on stealth is sufficient open to be interpreted differently.  Don't know if there is s general rule that defines which option takes precedence. 

[Linar]

It´s clear that the problem comes from not correctly defining stealth.

I understand that I should be able to target him. But as it´s written, nothing remains clear to me. And I don´t see anything in the rules that supports my theory.

[Sol_Sorrowsong]

A minor grievance I have with @Adran's interpretation (although maybe I'm just playing this part wrong) is that targeting requires LOS from the original model (Zoraida in this case).  

If we forget about stealth and just think of a case where Zoraida has a swampfiend within 12" of her and another Targetted model. The targetted model is blocked from LOS from Zoraida (say around the corner of a building).  By Adran's logic, Zoraida could not target the model because only the swampfiend she would draw LOS and range from could see it, but not her for the initial targeting.  I've not been playing that way, but perhaps that is a fault of mine.  What do others think?

[Adran]

2 hours ago, Sol_Sorrowsong said:

A minor grievance I have with @Adran's interpretation (although maybe I'm just playing this part wrong) is that targeting requires LOS from the original model (Zoraida in this case).  

If we forget about stealth and just think of a case where Zoraida has a swampfiend within 12" of her and another Targetted model. The targetted model is blocked from LOS from Zoraida (say around the corner of a building).  By Adran's logic, Zoraida could not target the model because only the swampfiend she would draw LOS and range from could see it, but not her for the initial targeting.  I've not been playing that way, but perhaps that is a fault of mine.  What do others think?

You've missed a crucial point of my interpretation.

The targeting requires range and line of sight from the targeting model "unless specified otherwise". (End of the paragraph I quoted from page 23).

So Her eyes in the dark means she no longer needs LOS and range drawn from her because it has specified otherwise.

 

If the ability still needed you to draw range and LOS from her as well its pointless.

[Sol_Sorrowsong]

After staring at it for a long time and rewriting a few times. I can sort of see your distinction.  I understood the "unless otherwise specified" but I took Eyes in the Night to be rather all or nothing in that regard. However, I can see that it doesn't specify that the Targetting is coming from the swampfiend model, but only the LOS and range.  Even though, they are the specific portions that make up Targetting.  

 

Sounds to me like it will only be solved by a FAQ.  Sorry for being dense.

 

[Adran]

40 minutes ago, Sol_Sorrowsong said:

After staring at it for a long time and rewriting a few times. I can sort of see your distinction.  I understood the "unless otherwise specified" but I took Eyes in the Night to be rather all or nothing in that regard. However, I can see that it doesn't specify that the Targetting is coming from the swampfiend model, but only the LOS and range.  Even though, they are the specific portions that make up Targetting.  

 

Sounds to me like it will only be solved by a FAQ.  Sorry for being dense.

 

Targeting a model contains 3 things, Line of sight to the model, range to the model and meeting any other requirements.  Those might be things like Being an enemy model, or other restrictions as specified by the action, but my reading of it is they may also be things caused by other game effects, such as Stealth.

 

I'm hoping for slight wording changes so we don't need it in the FAQ, but we shall see what happens when the rules are released.