Possible Henchman Hardcore Issue

[Deathinabox]

Hey, not sure where exactly this post should go. Anyways, Wyrd released the new Henchman Hardcore rules, and while I do like them, I do see one problem that may become an issue. With Vendetta as a mandatory scheme, it is possible to run into a situation where vendetta cannot be legally declared. A crew could hire an expensive leader, cache soulstones, and take upgrades. Then they could have models with low costs that would deny vendetta points to the opponent before the game begins. Not sure if this is a flat or a bully in risk of the game but I could see people having very negative play experiences during tournaments and not being even able to fix it between rounds. What do you guys think?

[Maniacal_cackle]

I think choosing to ignore vendetta might be a meta choice that actually happens.  For instance, the crew of leader + archie + rogue necromancy + mindless zombie is possible. Such a crew would be intentionally giving up vendetta for the ridiculous power (and possibly just wiping the enemy team).

If someone chose to go the route you're suggesting, I'd probably just focus on taking away their option of scoring plant explosives (after all, they're likely a pretty weak crew).

[Deathinabox]

Honestly, the more I think about, the more I feel plant explosives was the wrong choice. It's a pretty easy strat to score and requires no interaction with the opponent. This is made easier with less models on the board. I think a common tactic will be to go low points on scheme runners with upgrades and to take an expensive Henchman. Then you can simply drop all bombs for four points, and play cagey to eke out a single point for vendetta or assassinate. I feel like a modified, more centralized, certain of corrupted idols to get the fast paced feel of Henchman hardcore. 

[Deathinabox]

For example, if I took valedictorian, 2x undergrads, and a carrion effigy with Fate upgrade against that list, I would be fast enough to avoid everyone except Archie and could simply place my markers deep in your lines. Then if I score a single scheme point, you would have to kill Val to win the game.

[Maniacal_cackle]

If you can't avoid archie, how do you ensure you drop an explosive token every turn (including the first)? You get 5 explosive tokens and 5 turns to score points with them. If a single model is killed or your opponent snags one off the ground, you're behind again.

Also you can't take the fate upgrade.

I've always found plant explosives to involve heaps of interacting with the opponent (between trying to kill the explosive carriers and snagging them after they drop).

[Deathinabox]

32 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

If you can't avoid archie, how do you ensure you drop an explosive token every turn (including the first)? You get 5 explosive tokens and 5 turns to score points with them. If a single model is killed or your opponent snags one off the ground, you're behind again.

Also you can't take the fate upgrade.

I've always found plant explosives to involve heaps of interacting with the opponent (between trying to kill the explosive carriers and snagging them after they drop).

Archie can catch me but undergrads can be placed anywhere with 2 of Val, so he can't stop the drops. Also, if Archie is there alone, he could be killed by the crew pretty quickly ( or frankly just stunned to slow him down, then abandoned) Also, if Archie is chasing me, then that's one or two explosives you're not dropping.

I don't see anything stopping me from talking the fate upgrade?

[Maniacal_cackle]

Whoops, you're right, I was mixed up. It's the 'helping hand' ability that doesn't matter (free effigies with henchmen).

Guess we'll just have to play them out and see how they go!

EDIT: In particular, note the wedge deployment. Seems like that'll make a big difference here, where engagements can be forced pretty easily with the rest of the team coming up as well.

[Deathinabox]

8 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Guess we'll just have to play them out and see how they go!

Oh yeah for sure. I'm not overly concerned about it. Best case, I'm wrong and everything's fine. Worst case, I'm right and Henchman Hardcore needs a rework. Either way it's not a big deal and we won't know for sure until it's played some. It just seemed like a weird foot to start on.

[Adran]

8 hours ago, Deathinabox said:

For example, if I took valedictorian, 2x undergrads, and a carrion effigy with Fate upgrade against that list, I would be fast enough to avoid everyone except Archie and could simply place my markers deep in your lines. Then if I score a single scheme point, you would have to kill Val to win the game.

That sounds like a plan, but what are the enemy crew doing?  They can happily be going round picking up your explosive markers if you aren't holding the ground. It looks like an interesting choice where you have a Combat scheme and a mobile strategy, and its hard to compete well in both. You can go highly mobile, but that's hard to deny enemy points, and protect yours, or you can go highly combat, and struggle if the enemy is so mobile you can't catch them at all. A crew somewhere in the middle that can choose how much interaction will occur is probably the safer bet. (also its harder to out run a bullet. Sure the Archie crew doesn't use them, but you have to use the same list all event so you have to be prepared for anything).  (In this example, you can put the leader and the rogue dropping explosives in the enemy half, and then bring them back to pick up the Validictarians, whilst Archie has a decent chance to kill an undergraduate or the effigy each turn, which can quickly stop them scoring the explosives points. It might not go like that, but by the end of turn 2 the necromancy and the leader could have 4 markers down. and be in a place to attack anyone that tries to remove them, covering 2 each. )

You might well find people adding a cheap model into their crew so they always have a vendetta choice(I mean you can build a crew with the leader, max cache and upgrades and 3 3ss models, but its probably very hard to actually score anything with that list because it almost all dies if its caught at all). Having cost 6 models (The undergraduates) probably means that Vendetta is possible unless you have built a crew that is never going to be able to do it ( such as the one you listed). But the fact you can build a crew that can't score points doesn't mean that you should (unless you have a plan to cope with conceding those points)

[Paddywhack]

17 hours ago, Deathinabox said:

Also, if Archie is there alone, he could be killed by the crew pretty quickly ( or frankly just stunned to slow him down, then abandoned) Also, if Archie is chasing me, then that's one or two explosives you're not dropping.

Archie can't be stunned and all he really needs to do is go after Val. If you bounce the undergrads back to her, he's already there. Not saying it's a bad plan, but I don't think it's as easy as you imply. Archie is a pretty tough model with good movement.