Double Demises ...Demisis? ...Demisi? ...Demix? ...Demixen?

[Jesy Blue]

If a model had 2 Demise Abilities, do they both take affect? 

Example 1:  Land Mines Equipment Upgrade on Steam Trunk will have Explosive +2 twice.  When it dies, does everyone within 2" suffer 4 damage or just 2 damage?

Example 2:  Land Mines Equipment Upgrade on Iron Skeeters will have Explosive +2 & Flaming +1.  When it dies, does everyone within 2" suffer 3 damage and Burning 1, 2 damage, or 1 damage & Burning 1?  If only one Demise Ability, can you choose or does one take precedent?

Example 3:  Land Mines Equipment Upgrade on The Midnight Stalker will have Explosive +2 & Eternal.  When it dies, does it explode and heal itself so it doesn't die?  Do I have to choose to do damage & die or heal & not explode?  If it explodes and doesn't die, the Upgrade stays because it never took an Action on the Upgrade so its not discarded, making him a repeating suicide bomber.

 

Where do the answers lie?

[Morgan Vening]

1. Yes.

2. Yes.

3. No.

For the most part, Demise abilities stack, because there's no prohibition against it.

The exception is abilities that would heal or replace. At work, so can't quote the page number, but it's under Damage Timing.

[solkan]

2 hours ago, Morgan Vening said:

For the most part, Demise abilities stack, because there's no prohibition against it.

There’s a small issue, Abilities:

Quote

If a model gains a second instance of an Ability it already possesses (most often from an Upgrade), the second instance of the Ability has no effect unless the Ability has a value (such as Armor +1).

If the reason why Demise (Whatever) is written that way is because all of the Demise abilities are supposed to be considered named “Demise”, then gaining a Demise doesn’t result in two Demises being resolved.

Execute refers to them as “Demise Abilities”, but that’s using a convention that isn’t formally defined in the rules.

[Jesy Blue]

Quote

Page 34

6.  If a model is at 0 Health, it is killed, then resolve the following effects:

     a. Resolve any effects that would Heal or Replace the killed model. If this effect would bring the model above 0 Health, it is no longer killed.

     b.  Resolve any After killing Triggers.

     c.  Any effects that resolve after the model is killed (such as placing Corpse or Scrap Markers) resolve at this point.

     d.  The killed model (its model, Stat Card, and any Upgrades) is removed from the game.

Thank you.  I was looking for Demise in the book but it never actually uses the word for some reason.

[Morgan Vening]

9 minutes ago, solkan said:

There’s a small issue, Abilities:

If the reason why Demise (Whatever) is written that way is because all of the Demise abilities are supposed to be considered named “Demise”, then gaining a Demise doesn’t result in two Demises being resolved.

Execute refers to them as “Demise Abilities”, but that’s using a convention that isn’t formally defined in the rules.

Right. But doesn't the parentheses make them separate abilities? So Demise (Flaming+1) and Demise (Explosive+2) count as separate effects?

I thought that got argued for Mantras (Sandeep), and it was figured they were.

Doesn't the wording mean two Explosives DO stack, because it's written with a cumlative modifier? I guess I'm confused as why both Explosive and Flaming would use +X damage, rather than X damage, if they weren't intended to stack.

[solkan]

1 hour ago, Morgan Vening said:

Right. But doesn't the parentheses make them separate abilities? So Demise (Flaming+1) and Demise (Explosive+2) count as separate effects?

I thought that got argued for Mantras (Sandeep), and it was figured they were.

Doesn't the wording mean two Explosives DO stack, because it's written with a cumlative modifier? I guess I'm confused as why both Explosive and Flaming would use +X damage, rather than X damage, if they weren't intended to stack.

That’s why I said “if ...”.  I couldn’t remember all of the Demise’s.  

Demise (Explosive +3) and Demise (Intoxicating +1) existing indicates that the material in the parentheses has to be part of the name according to the Abilities rules.

 

[solkan]

6 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

If a model had 2 Demise Abilities, do they both take affect? 

Example 1:  Land Mines Equipment Upgrade on Steam Trunk will have Explosive +2 twice.  When it dies, does everyone within 2" suffer 4 damage or just 2 damage?

According to the Abilities rules, the two Demise (Explosive +2) abilities combine into one Demise (Explosive +4).

Quote

Example 2:  Land Mines Equipment Upgrade on Iron Skeeters will have Explosive +2 & Flaming +1.  When it dies, does everyone within 2" suffer 3 damage and Burning 1, 2 damage, or 1 damage & Burning 1?  If only one Demise Ability, can you choose or does one take precedent?

Even though Execute is using some sort of short-name convention, we don’t have any grounds for concluding that all of the variant of Demise are the same name by ignoring the parentheses.  And, as Morgan Vening helpfully pointed out, the +2 and +1’s are in the parentheses.

Quote

Example 3:  Land Mines Equipment Upgrade on The Midnight Stalker will have Explosive +2 & Eternal.  When it dies, does it explode and heal itself so it doesn't die?  Do I have to choose to do damage & die or heal & not explode?  If it explodes and doesn't die, the Upgrade stays because it never took an Action on the Upgrade so its not discarded, making him a repeating suicide bomber.

Second to last paragraph in Killed says that if you heal out of Killed, you stop resolving effects caused by being killed.  So you won’t resolve any more Demise abilities after healing but you could resolve other Demise abilities before the one that heals you.  (A whole lot of the Replace effects have a healing component, so should trigger that indirectly...)

So if a model ends up with Demise (Explosive+2) And Demise (Eternal), it ends up being controllers choice, because it’s two effects of the same timing and you’re not mandated to choose the sequence where everything can be resolved.

 

[Morgan Vening]

5 minutes ago, solkan said:

So if a model ends up with Demise (Explosive+2) And Demise (Eternal), it ends up being controllers choice, because it’s two effects of the same timing and you’re not mandated to choose the sequence where everything can be resolved.

Pedant hat on, but technically it's not the same timing. Eternal has to be resolved first (Damage Timing 6a). You can, of course, choose to fail that, and move on to the explodey bits, but the order does matter so you can't explode first then heal. Intended to prevent the problematic boom-heal.

[Ludvig]

@Morgan Vening ninjaed me.  The timing chart is on p 34 if anyone needs to look it up. I guess the demise abilities with a + would stack since the brackets part seems to be part of the name of the ability. Otherwise they probably wouldn't use a + before the damage.