Target Randomisation Flip questions.

[CustardBomb]

Hi all! I had a few questions about target randomisation flips for projectile attacks that I hope you can all help me with! 

1. When flipping for randomisation you flip to target any model who the origional target is engaging correct. It doesnt matter if the target is engaging them back? Eg. Ulix has an engagement range of 4 inches. So does this mean that when targeting Ulix you randomise for every enemy within 4 inches? But if a gremlin shot one of those same models. Ulix would not be randomised for because that model is not engaging Ulix?

2. You only flip randomisation fir models which are enemies of the origional target? Cause they cant engage there allies? 

3. You only flip for other LEGAL targets. So models which are out of range or line of sight are not randomised for? 

4. Can you cheat the randomisation flip? (Eg. I flip a 4 for my model. And an 8 for the origional target. Can I cheat a 3 for the enemy to make them get hit. Or can I cheat a 9 for my model??) 

5. Does height have any affect on randomisation? 

Thanks for any help you can all offer!

[solkan]

Edit:  I'm going to claim Edition Fatigue on this post, because I committed two long running errors:

1.  In order to randomize, the target has to be engaged with an enemy model within 2" of it.

2.  I forgot how bad the rules were about "engaged", "engaged with", "engaging", and not keeping straight who's responsible for the situation because it goes both ways.  

So I added an important correction to my original post in red.

12 hours ago, CustardBomb said:

Hi all! I had a few questions about target randomisation flips for projectile attacks that I hope you can all help me with! 

1. When flipping for randomisation you flip to target any model who the origional target is engaging correct. It doesnt matter if the target is engaging them back? Eg. Ulix has an engagement range of 4 inches. So does this mean that when targeting Ulix you randomise for every enemy within 4 inches? But if a gremlin shot one of those same models. Ulix would not be randomised for because that model is not engaging Ulix?

No, the candidate pool for randomization has nothing to do with who is engaging whom.  The candidate pool is quite simple:

1.  Every single model within 2" of the original target if and only if the target is engaged with a model within 2" of it.

Line of sight is irrelevant, and is called out both in the rulebook and the FAQ as irrelevant.  Whether any of those models are engaging the target is irrelevant.  You could be targeting a model that was engaged by an enemy model that was 3" away from it, and the candidate pool wouldn't be any different.  But you still need the one model within 2" of the target engaged with the target.  The enemy model 3" is actually a red herring and it can't cause randomization anyway.

In order to be excluded from the candidate pool specified above, a model needs a rule like Santiago or the Doppleganger where no card is flipped for it.

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2. You only flip randomisation fir models which are enemies of the origional target? Cause they cant engage there allies? 

You randomize to determine the actual target because your declared target was engaged.  The randomization process doesn't care about who is engaging whom.

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3. You only flip for other LEGAL targets. So models which are out of range or line of sight are not randomised for? 

Incorrect.  The rules call out these as possible outcomes.  "When firing into an engagement it is possible to hit targets that aren't technically within LoS or range to the Attacker, or to even hit models that aren't engaged (but are within 2" of the target model)."

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4. Can you cheat the randomisation flip? (Eg. I flip a 4 for my model. And an 8 for the origional target. Can I cheat a 3 for the enemy to make them get hit. Or can I cheat a 9 for my model??) 

To quote a different section of the rules "[It] is important to note that a player may not Cheat Fate unless specifically allowed."  The randomization rules do not grant permission to cheat the randomization flips.

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5. Does height have any affect on randomisation? 

Ht of the models involved is irrelevant.

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Thanks for any help you can all offer!

For what it's worth, the firing into engagement rules are likely going to become irrelevant in the next edition due to rules changes.  So if this seems implausible or unreasonably simplified, just wait.  

[Adran]

1 hour ago, CustardBomb said:

Hi all! I had a few questions about target randomisation flips for projectile attacks that I hope you can all help me with! 

1. When flipping for randomisation you flip to target any model who the origional target is engaging correct. It doesnt matter if the target is engaging them back? Eg. Ulix has an engagement range of 4 inches. So does this mean that when targeting Ulix you randomise for every enemy within 4 inches? But if a gremlin shot one of those same models. Ulix would not be randomised for because that model is not engaging Ulix?

2. You only flip randomisation fir models which are enemies of the origional target? Cause they cant engage there allies? 

3. You only flip for other LEGAL targets. So models which are out of range or line of sight are not randomised for? 

4. Can you cheat the randomisation flip? (Eg. I flip a 4 for my model. And an 8 for the origional target. Can I cheat a 3 for the enemy to make them get hit. Or can I cheat a 9 for my model??) 

5. Does height have any affect on randomisation? 

Thanks for any help you can all offer!

If the target is engaged you flip for all models within 2" of the target. It doesn't matter if thye are engaged with the original target or not. It doesn't matter if they are out of range or line of sight of the shooter, they can still be targets.

You can't cheat the flip.

Ht has no effect on randomisation

 

 

[CustardBomb]

Thankyou both for your help!! I am far less confused about this rule now!

[santaclaws01]

8 hours ago, solkan said:

Line of sight is irrelevant, and is called out both in the rulebook and the FAQ as irrelevant.  Whether any of those models are engaging the target is irrelevant.  You could be targeting a model that was engaged by an enemy model that was 3" away from it, and the candidate pool wouldn't be any different.

To randomize the target has to be engaged by an enemy within 2", so that would change the candidate pool.

[solkan]

2 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

To randomize the target has to be engaged by an enemy within 2", so that would change the candidate pool.

Okay, good point but we've both got it wrong at this point--I got the part you quoted somewhat incorrect, but your correction is also somewhat incorrect.     (If the target has a 2" melee range and there's an enemy model nearby with a 1" melee range, that's good enough even though the target is one causing the engagement.)

The target has to be engaged with one or more models which are also within 2" of the target.

That doesn't change the candidate pool, it means that sometimes when you shoot at an engaged model, you don't randomize because there's no engaging or engaged model within 2" of the target.

One enemy model and a dozen friendly models packed into the area within 2" of the target is still randomizing for 14 models (target + 1 enemy + 12 friendly); the same as being surrounded by 13 enemy models would be.  As long as someone within 2" was engaged with the target.