Kirai's Malevolence Timing question

[Kinginyello]

So my question is when an attack declares an "after damaging trigger" or "after succeding" and I declare malevolence from kirai. Which happens first? Also does "after succeeding" and "after damaging" change the answer against kirai's aura?

Examples being zipp's "My Work Done" on his attack "up you go" or raspy's  "overpower" trigger on "December's Curse"

[Ludvig]

I'm fairly certain triggers go before abilities with the same timing, there is a general timing chart in the book, do a text search or look through the index in the pdf. After succeeding triggers happen after the model is removed so sometimes won't kick in since they measure from the model, as long as they don't measure from the model it doesn't matter though.

I guess since Malevolence also measures from the model you might not get Ikiryo if they kill the model with the aura but I'm not 100% sure.

[solkan]

4 hours ago, Kinginyello said:

So my question is when an attack declares an "after damaging trigger" or "after succeding" and I declare malevolence from kirai. Which happens first? Also does "after succeeding" and "after damaging" change the answer against kirai's aura?

The Malevolence ability happens when it says it does—after the friendly model suffers damage.  It doesn’t wait until later because it’s not a trigger.

During a complicated attack with triggers, that means that you’ll see sequences like:

• Model X suffers 3 damage.
• malevolence is resolved, placing Unkouku.
• The rest of the attack, and the attacker’s “After Damaging” trigger are resolved.

 

[Ludvig]

Unless the attack has an extra ability that is resolved after the damage part I would assume after suffering damage and after damaging would both be the same timing and there is nothing left to resolve so you are at the "after step 5" step in the timing process?

[solkan]

13 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Unless the attack has an extra ability that is resolved after the damage part I would assume after suffering damage and after damaging would both be the same timing and there is nothing left to resolve so you are at the "after step 5" step in the timing process?

Why you make an assumption that contradicts such entries as 

Quote

70. If a model with the Eat Your Fill Ability kills a model with the Explosive Demise Ability, which Ability occurs first? Does the Attacker heal from Eat Your Fill first, or does the Defender deal damage with the Explosive Demise Ability first?
The Defender would deal damage with the Explosive Demise Ability and then the Attacker would heal due to Eat Your Fill. Explosive Demies happens “when” the model is killed and Eat Your Fill happens “after” the model is killed.

71. If a model has an “After Damaging” Trigger which allows it to push/move and it kills a model with Explosive Demise, can it use its Trigger to push/move away from the model it killed before taking damage from Explosive Demise?
No. Explosive Demise happens when the model is killed, which would be during Step 5 of the duel process (Determine Success, Core Rulebook pg. 33) and After Damaging Triggers occur after Step 5 (Core Rulebook pg. 32).

The “after a model is damaged” ability happens during step 5.

The trigger happens during the After Step 5 Step.

The lack of an effect to resolve after the damage doesn’t make the two timing steps equivalent.

 

[Ludvig]

@solkan I really don't see how this contradicts my position. Malevolence is an after effect and not a when. Explosive demise is a "when" so has nothing i common with malevolence. None of your quoted entries mention if normal "after" abilities happen durih or after dtep 5. It might be like thatbut you haven't put forward an argument for that, I am 100% on board with "when" effects slotting into step 5, I thought the whole point of "after" was that it happened after the event that caused it.

I'm not saying it's impossible but I'm not aware of any hard evidence for "after" effects slotting into the same step.

[WWHSD]

6 hours ago, Ludvig said:

@solkan I really don't see how this contradicts my position. Malevolence is an after effect and not a when. Explosive demise is a "when" so has nothing i common with malevolence. None of your quoted entries mention if normal "after" abilities happen durih or after dtep 5. It might be like thatbut you haven't put forward an argument for that, I am 100% on board with "when" effects slotting into step 5, I thought the whole point of "after" was that it happened after the event that caused it.

I'm not saying it's impossible but I'm not aware of any hard evidence for "after" effects slotting into the same step.

I'm with Ludvig here. The examples from the FAQ you gave are talking about how a "when killed" ability interacts with "after killing" abilities. 

With Malevolence and an after damaging trigger, they appear to have the same timing, so you'd resolve the triggers first and then resolve Malevolence (per the timing chart). 
 

[Kinginyello]

Is this an area that is under foggyness of the rules so may be best if I ask before the games or is there a standard answer at tourneys on how this is played?

Putting up ikiryo before or after triggers I imagine as coming up commonly enough and can change a game. 

[Ludvig]

@Kinginyello ask the TO for a ruling in advance so they can have a look way before the tournament instead of needing to call them over when the time is ticking during the game.

It will not matter for most triggers but will be a gamechanger if the opponent has a trigger to take an attack again or something similar.

[Kinginyello]

1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

@Kinginyello ask the TO for a ruling in advance so they can have a look way before the tournament instead of needing to call them over when the time is ticking during the game.

It will not matter for most triggers but will be a gamechanger if the opponent has a trigger to take an attack again or something similar.

Attack again or move is where my thoughts were at. My examples of raspy and zipp being a biggy. Thanks mate.