Sensei Yu and Yan Lo

[Talthar]

Yan Lo has the Awakening upgrade attached, which turns his Lightning Dance attack action to a {0} action.  Can Sensei Yu use his Disciple ability to duplicate it, now that it's a {0} action?

[whodares]

I would go with no due to the wording of the other Ability on the card: Spark of Enlightenment. It sais: This model can take Lightning Dance as a (0) instead of a (1) action.

This means Lightning Dance is still a (1) action in nature. Because it remains a (1) action, Sensei Yu can't copy it.

[Ludvig]

I'm with whodares on this. Take the (1) lightning dance, when Yan Lo himself declares it the cost will change to (0) for that particular action at the spend ap step if he so choses but it is still a (1) action.

[Talthar]

This came up in a game yesterday, and it was decided that the answer was "No" until we had more information.  

[Kbonn]

Whodares is correct. The action is not listed as a (0) action, so sensei cannot copy it.

[TheUnseemlyOne]

On 7/24/2018 at 7:32 AM, whodares said:

I would go with no due to the wording of the other Ability on the card: Spark of Enlightenment. It sais: This model can take Lightning Dance as a (0) instead of a (1) action.

This means Lightning Dance is still a (1) action in nature. Because it remains a (1) action, Sensei Yu can't copy it.

I’m not sure that I can agree with this because of the wording on Disciple. 

“This model immediately takes a (0) action belonging to a friendly leader in play. “

If it said a (0) action printed on the models card, then I would completely agree. 

[solkan]

6 hours ago, TheUnseemlyOne said:

I’m not sure that I can agree with this because of the wording on Disciple. 

“This model immediately takes a (0) action belonging to a friendly leader in play. “

If it said a (0) action printed on the models card, then I would completely agree. 

It’s not a (0) action belonging to the model.  It’s a (1) Action that it can take as a (0) Action.

See, for instance, the Changeling FAQ where just because the model can take an Action doesn’t include it for the purposes of engagement range, even though that is define as

Quote

Every model has an “engagement range” equal to the distance of its longest range Close (y) Attack.

So the Changelings can declare attacks that aren’t theirs.  

[TheUnseemlyOne]

12 hours ago, solkan said:

See, for instance, the Changeling FAQ where just because the model can take an Action doesn’t include it for the purposes of engagement range, even though that is define as

So the Changelings can declare attacks that aren’t theirs.  

I don’t think the changeling faq really relates to this in a relevant way.  

[Ludvig]

4 hours ago, TheUnseemlyOne said:

I don’t think the changeling faq really relates to this in a relevant way.  

I agree on this but Yan Lo doesn't have a (0) action called lightning dance. He has the (1) lightning dance action that he himself under certain conditions can take as a 0 action but the action is clearly a (1) cost action except for when he uses the ability on his upgrade. Sensri Yu does not have the upgrade to allow him to treat it as a 0 and thus can't copy it.

[TheUnseemlyOne]

2 hours ago, Ludvig said:

I agree on this but Yan Lo doesn't have a (0) action called lightning dance. He has the (1) lightning dance action that he himself under certain conditions can take as a 0 action but the action is clearly a (1) cost action except for when he uses the ability on his upgrade. Sensri Yu does not have the upgrade to allow him to treat it as a 0 and thus can't copy it.

That Yan Lo can take as a (0) action arguably allows you to treat it as one with the way Disciple is worded.  

If it were worded like other abilities that allow a model to take an action on another models card like the Changeling’s Copycat or the Doppelganger’s Mimic, which say “This model may (1) attack actions printed on any model or upgrade within (aura)3 which does not list a model by name” and “Select a (1) action printed on a non-leader models stat card or upgrades that do not list a model by name.” 

Saying take another models (x) action and take an (x) action printed on another models card may seem basically the same, but the specific wording can get different results.  

It may just be a case of wording not being as well thought out in the case of Sensei Yu and/or Yan Lo when compared to the Changeling and Doppelganger, but the wording is potentially different enough to matter. 

[whodares]

Spark of Enlightenment: This model may take the Lightning Dance Action as a (0) Action instead of a (1) Action.

 

This does not add a (0) Lightning Dance to the card, it allows you to spend 0 AP for it instead of 1. Because it remains to be a (1) on the card itself, Sensei Yu can't copy it.

[Ludvig]

1 hour ago, TheUnseemlyOne said:

That Yan Lo can take as a (0) action arguably allows you to treat it as one with the way Disciple is worded.  

If it were worded like other abilities that allow a model to take an action on another models card like the Changeling’s Copycat or the Doppelganger’s Mimic, which say “This model may (1) attack actions printed on any model or upgrade within (aura)3 which does not list a model by name” and “Select a (1) action printed on a non-leader models stat card or upgrades that do not list a model by name.” 

Saying take another models (x) action and take an (x) action printed on another models card may seem basically the same, but the specific wording can get different results.  

It may just be a case of wording not being as well thought out in the case of Sensei Yu and/or Yan Lo when compared to the Changeling and Doppelganger, but the wording is potentially different enough to matter. 

I can't agree at all. Yan Lo can treat it as a zero, all other models in the game refer to it as normal so when Yu refers to lightning dance it is as (1) Lightning dance. If the upgrade said the action changed it's cost from 1 to 0 it would now be a zero action belonging to Yan Lo but he wouldn't be able to take it as a one ap action. As the upgrade is worded it is still one of Yan Lo's (1) actions but at the spend ap step of performing it he (only ever This model) can spend his 0 instead of a normal 1 action.

[TheUnseemlyOne]

9 hours ago, whodares said:

Because it remains to be a (1) on the card itself, Sensei Yu can't copy it.

I would completely agree if Disciple was worded similarly to Mimic or Copycat.  

I don’t think there’s much more to say at this point.  I think anything past this point is just going to be repeating ourselves, unless there’s something new to be said.