Hannah in Guild?

[thewrathchilde]

one of the guys mentioned Hannah in the recently played list thread and that got me to thinking about the places I could/would think about using Hannah. The benefits of including her in a list are obvious- an extra card (Arcane Reservoir +1), Counterspell to protect her against some of the threatening spells, Nether Flux, 3" MI Reach, and ability to copy a non-Master (1) CA action. What's less obvious is the down side to taking her. To fit her in you are dropping a beater or multiple support models so losing out on one of your hard hitters and/or losing model count making activation control even more of an issue. She can beat on the enemy a little herself but can't do near as much damage as a Peacekeeper or Executioner. 

So the big question is whether or not the trade-off is worth it? Is it worth it to lose a little in killing power (and whatever other abilities the model you swap out might have) in order to get the extra card in your control hand (and her other benefits)? This may be worth it with some masters, but may not be either. I have looked at a few different lists and masters to see where/how I could fit her in, where I have (1) CA worth copying, and have tried to evaluate the pros/cons to see if it is worth it. Tomorrow I think I will test out one of these to see how it goes. 

My first two thoughts were with Nellie and with Lucius. They already can get a 7 card hand so adding in Hannah even further amplifies this advantage taking you to an 8 card hand. With both of these you have/can have (1) CA's worth copying. With Lucius I was considering something like: Lucius w/Deep Pockets & Secret Objectives, The Scribe, Phiona w/Lead Lined Coat & Transparency, Witchling Thrall x 2, Guild Guard x 2, and Hannah. In this list you still have a pretty significant melee threat from Phiona and the 2 x Thralls plus have 3 sources of good (1) CA's to copy (Look Out or Command Stone from Phiona, or Aetheric Blast from either Thrall) but those aren't the only CA's available you can also copy Menace from the Guild Guard or either of the Scribe's CA actions as well (Do You Have An Appointment or Your Mask, Sir). In this list I still have 8 activations, decent melee, multiple sources of casts to deal with Incorporeal, and some tricks (double Command Stone). Only down sides vs. my normal lists are losing the Queller and a Lawyer/3rd Guild Guard/Spellcaster/Investigator (if I drop an upgrade off Phiona). This is the version I like the best and think I will try out tomorrow.

I also considered Hannah with Nellie in something like: Nellie w/Delegation & Misleading & Embedded, Printing Press, Frank w/Wade In & Lead Lined Coat, Phiona w/Transparency & Lead Lined Coat, Allison Dade, Thalarian Queller, and Hannah. The easy swaps are drop the Queller to get 2 x Guild Guard or a Monster Hunter/Investigator/etc. The pros as like with Lucius you get an 8 card hand which with Nellie is even more powerful with the ability to pass activations. You also have some good (1) CA's to copy- Command Stone, Restraining Wand, Enchant Weapon, Area Suppression, or One More Question. Between Allison and Hannah that's potentially 3 x Slow enemy models while Nellie stays free to hand out Fast to Frank and Phiona. Alternately it's more Suppression Markers, more "no damage reduction" or any of a number of other options. The down side is in order to take Hannah I am losing out on something like either the Peacekeeper or Executioner. The Peacekeeper is even more survivable against most things (Armor +2, 11 WD, Hard to Wound +1, Terrifying Living 12) has a much more devastating melee attack and also has a ranged attack (Sh not copy a CA) that hands out Slow and he can do it multiple times a turn..... that doesn't even get into a Fast PK performing a Walk/Flurry or Sh/Flurry. The Executioner also is a significant threat that brings a lot of tools into play also. In this specific example Hannah is really just adding more of the same (another Slow) rather than some unique capability or great threat. Obviously there are other configurations of the list you could run that may be better and capitalize off her abilities more effectively but I didn't spend a lot of time really trying to plan it out and wanted to throw this up for consideration and discussion. 

At first blush the trade-off in the Nellie list isn't worth it to me but the Lucius list might be worth trying out. In Nellie I think my other spam slow list w/Dade and the PK would probably be more effective. I will give it a try tomorrow and report back. Feel free to add to the discussion in the meantime. 

[Ludvig]

In my opinion Hannah goes well with Papa Loco (either because his buff on her melee attack is sick or because she can copy a bury and is immune to his pulses when she lets him out). Anyone who was going to bunch up at all will have to seriously rethink that against that duo.

Her ghost censer also goes really well with a debt to the guild since that upgrade is lovely with blasts.

[lusciousmccabe]

5 hours ago, thewrathchilde said:

...can also copy Menace from the Guild Guard...

 

Please don't, it's an embarrassing enough ability on a 3SS unit, let alone 11.

Hannah can also be useful for copying casts off other mercenaries in a Nellie lists e.g. performer. She also nice for some incidental casts you might be taking anyway such as Witchling Stalkers, Death marshal or a Lawyer. Since her copy has decent range you often get to pick and choose whatever is useful which is nice. 

I'm planning on trying her out with Master Queeg, since she can take Welcome to Hell as a (0) to save him some AP, or to create a second aura of it. 

If you're looking for pure damage/survivability she certainly isn't the best choice for the cost. One of her big selling points for me is the big engagement range with blasts in melee that helps control objectives and the fact that she's difficult to move with most enemy actions because of her Counterspells and high Wp. This makes her nice for controlling areas in certain objectives, but the fact that she needs support to stay alive and costs a tonne makes her a bit more of a niche/variety pick. 

[4thstringer]

She also passes Lucius's commanding presence tests rather easily. 

She can be another model to command sanctioned spellcasters around.

[thewrathchilde]

8 hours ago, lusciousmccabe said:

Please don't, it's an embarrassing enough ability on a 3SS unit, let alone 11.

that would never be the plan- I was just pointing out that it is an option in the absence of anything better to do. Typically there is always something better to do; I don't think I have ever actually cast Menace with a Guild Guard. With Hannah it would be a matter of casting something every turn possible to get as much AP out of her as you can. Typically it would be  an Aetheric Blast, an Enchant Weapon/Suppression/Restraining, One More Question, Flash the Badge etc but in that odd situation where there is nothing else to do then Menace is better than not Making  a New Entry....late in the turn against something with low WP when you have a low Ram to spare then it could potentially be Paralyzed enemy next turn too.....

39 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

She also passes Lucius's commanding presence tests rather easily. 

She can be another model to command sanctioned spellcasters around.

Excellent point. There have been those games where the Commanding Presence (and not being paralyzed) was so critical I have burned a stone to guarantee I passed on Phiona. With her WP not really any risk (much) of that happening. 

10 hours ago, Ludvig said:

In my opinion Hannah goes well with Papa Loco (either because his buff on her melee attack is sick or because she can copy a bury and is immune to his pulses when she lets him out). Anyone who was going to bunch up at all will have to seriously rethink that against that duo.

Her ghost censer also goes really well with a debt to the guild since that upgrade is lovely with blasts.

Hadn't really considered her with Papa Loco. Typically I just don't have room for him except for with Sonnia and I haven't considered Hannah in that list.....I don't really have any good CA to copy the way I run it except for maybe Command Stone or Bound By Law depending on whether I have Phiona or the Judge in the list and Papa isn't providing one for her to copy. 

Generally I think (excluding other Mercenaries) our best things to copy are One More Question (even though you don't get triggers you still get slow), Aetheric Blast, the Queller's actions, and maybe Command Stone or Do You Have an Appointment. With other Mercenaries in the list too it would open up a whole other range of options. 

[4thstringer]

I feel like phionas place, Belle's lures and the domadors healing blast would be decent options.