Kaeris in Wave 5

[Jinn]

8 hours ago, D6Damager said:

So besides, Carlos, Emissary, & Gunsmiths what other models are people taking with Kaeris?

I don't think it's worth running the Emissary with her anymore now that Flaming Angel exists, and I don't take gunsmiths with anyone. I mainly run the Oxfordians, Carlos with warding runes and often the Firestarter with warding runes for that free reckless.

[Mxbedlam]

Carlos, Kandara, Firestarter, Mech Rider, Myrandabus, Performers, Mages, Acolytes. Basically Arcanist good stuff. 

[Bengt]

14 hours ago, D6Damager said:

So besides, Carlos, Emissary, & Gunsmiths what other models are people taking with Kaeris?

I guess I would like to try Carlos at some point but haven't bought the model yet. To do something for Kaeris the Emissary have to compromise too much so have never fitted it. Would never take Gunsmith with anything.

For burning I usually take Union Miners and maybe a Fire Gamin or Eternal Flame (more for theme than them being particularly strong). The rest of my Kaeris crews are just generally good Arcanist models.

[Mxbedlam]

I really feel like Heatwave Kaeris needs to rely less on burning synergy than other Kaeris builds. Seems very odd but Kaeris can put out quite a lot of burning herself especially with Flaming Angel upgrade and an arcane effigy. This version of Kaeris isn't looking to burn people to death she just wants to debuff them. So if I was looking at her for this purpose, probably very little burning synergy and a lot more decent beaters and schemers

[KingCrow]

The Heatwave Kaeris (HwK) build is built to be more for tanking and controlling.  To this end, I think it's smart to put Imbued Protection on her.  Defense 7 can go a long way to keeping her alive and continually putting out the debuff.  Maybe bring along Amina to pull models in and swoop in with Kaeris afterwards to get a good group of enemies to set afire. 

Arcanists have plenty of independent models of all types that run just fine without needing burning and can easily contribute to wrecking the opponents crew. 

[Mxbedlam]

2 hours ago, KingCrow said:

The Heatwave Kaeris (HwK) build is built to be more for tanking and controlling.  To this end, I think it's smart to put Imbued Protection on her.  Defense 7 can go a long way to keeping her alive and continually putting out the debuff.  Maybe bring along Amina to pull models in and swoop in with Kaeris afterwards to get a good group of enemies to set afire. 

Arcanists have plenty of independent models of all types that run just fine without needing burning and can easily contribute to wrecking the opponents crew. 

Don't need that honestly. the Debuff is more than enough. Every instance of it effectively pushes her df up another 1 easily. 

[hydranixx]

I want to like Imbued Protection, but it's unnecessary, not to mention expensive. It doesn't help Kaeris do anything if they just ignore her or have access to Condition removal. 

5 hours ago, Mrbedlam said:

I really feel like Heatwave Kaeris needs to rely less on burning synergy than other Kaeris builds. Seems very odd but Kaeris can put out quite a lot of burning herself especially with Flaming Angel upgrade and an arcane effigy. This version of Kaeris isn't looking to burn people to death she just wants to debuff them. So if I was looking at her for this purpose, probably very little burning synergy and a lot more decent beaters and schemers

Effigy's Burning only applies if the enemy model suffers damage from an Attack Action; only Kaeris' Immolation. I think if you want 'more' overall Burning you're always going to opt for Flaming Halo as its triggers get you the most, so that (0) Radiance sadly doesn't do anything.

I agree that Heatwave Kaeris is less likely to rely on Burning synergies than her other Limited builds, but I'd still want to bring at least one good source of long ranged Burning to help her out (sometimes she'll need to spend 2-3 AP just getting to the right target so getting it to Burning +2 or +3 before she goes could be pivotal). I'm thinking Malifaux Child is possible good enough, but Mages are (again) seeming like the go to.

[Mxbedlam]

46 minutes ago, hydranixx said:

I want to like Imbued Protection, but it's unnecessary, not to mention expensive. It doesn't help Kaeris do anything if they just ignore her or have access to Condition removal. 

Effigy's Burning only applies if the enemy model suffers damage from an Attack Action; only Kaeris' Immolation. I think if you want 'more' overall Burning you're always going to opt for Flaming Halo as its triggers get you the most, so that (0) Radiance sadly doesn't do anything.

I agree that Heatwave Kaeris is less likely to rely on Burning synergies than her other Limited builds, but I'd still want to bring at least one good source of long ranged Burning to help her out (sometimes she'll need to spend 2-3 AP just getting to the right target so getting it to Burning +2 or +3 before she goes could be pivotal). I'm thinking Malifaux Child is possible good enough, but Mages are (again) seeming like the go to.

yeah I've played Mages with Kaeris a few times and I think they will help go a ways to giving her just enough burning

[KingCrow]

59 minutes ago, Mrbedlam said:

Don't need that honestly. the Debuff is more than enough. Every instance of it effectively pushes her df up another 1 easily. 

What about those models that don't randomize their Ca or Sh actions into melee? What about models that don't have the Heatwave condition on them and activate before you can get it on them?  The Heatwave condition is super strong and can lead to your opponent's key models doing nothing that they are meant to do.  The upgrade is there to give her more survivability as I can guarantee you that once your opponent sees how hard the debuff hits them, Kaeris becomes a prime target. 

I believe the Heatwave build results in one of two things: your enemy will engage Kaeris and try to take her out before you can apply this condition or avoid her and kill her with range.  Either way, having a defense of 7 and the ability to prevent 2 damage is going to be beneficial. 

[Mxbedlam]

3 minutes ago, KingCrow said:

What about those models that don't randomize their Ca or Sh actions into melee? What about models that don't have the Heatwave condition on them and activate before you can get it on them?  The Heatwave condition is super strong and can lead to your opponent's key models doing nothing that they are meant to do.  The upgrade is there to give her more survivability as I can guarantee you that once your opponent sees how hard the debuff hits them, Kaeris becomes a prime target. 

I believe the Heatwave build results in one of two things: your enemy will engage Kaeris and try to take her out before you can apply this condition or avoid her and kill her with range.  Either way, having a defense of 7 and the ability to prevent 2 damage is going to be beneficial. 

I'd rather take Sieze and make sure I get that initiative for Swoop + heatwave asap.

[WWHSD]

I'd like the Freikorps Specialist to be good with her just because I hate having models that I'll never use.

[KingCrow]

5 minutes ago, Mrbedlam said:

I'd rather take Sieze and make sure I get that initiative for Swoop + heatwave asap.

Too much variability for me to rely just on a positive flip to initiative. 

 

3 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

I'd like the Freikorps Specialist to be good with her just because I hate having models that I'll never use.

I really like using this model but it's hard to utilize bc of its slow movement.  I've used Well Rehearsed to get good pushes from scheme marker placement. 

[hydranixx]

So you're leaning Heatwave with Imbued Protection and, I assume, Flaming Angel? It feels like it's 6ss in upgrades to make Kaeris give her best Brewmaster impression. 

lf I was really worried about Kaeris being ganged up on I'd probably rock Blinding Flame to push things away and prevent Charges instead. It'd do more to mitigate a big hitter coming in to swat her and it'd also make Kaeris' activations more meaningful if the opponent decides to try avoid her. 

[Mxbedlam]

12 hours ago, WWHSD said:

I'd like the Freikorps Specialist to be good with her just because I hate having models that I'll never use.

Specialist would be good if it was 1SS less IMO. its normal cost + merc tax just makes it too expensive when better options for burning like Mages exist.

[WWHSD]

1 hour ago, Mrbedlam said:

Specialist would be good if it was 1SS less IMO. its normal cost + merc tax just makes it too expensive when better options for burning like Mages exist.

At 9 points it's the same cost as Carlos and a points less than 2 Mages (assuming that you bring three). I'm not sure that just reducing the cost by 1 would be enough unless you really needed to be able to remove scrap and corpse markers.

[KingCrow]

14 hours ago, hydranixx said:

So you're leaning Heatwave with Imbued Protection and, I assume, Flaming Angel? It feels like it's 6ss in upgrades to make Kaeris give her best Brewmaster impression. 

lf I was really worried about Kaeris being ganged up on I'd probably rock Blinding Flame to push things away and prevent Charges instead. It'd do more to mitigate a big hitter coming in to swat her and it'd also make Kaeris' activations more meaningful if the opponent decides to try avoid her. 

You're basically playing her as a debuffer so yes, that is similar to the Brewmaster.  Kaeris just has more offensive capability than the Brewmaster.  I wasn't sure what I would take for the last upgrade but Blinding Flame is a good option.  It is basically a model's worth of upgrades that you're taking on Kaeris at this point but the unresisted debuff that you put out just from Heat Wave warrants the additional protection and Blinding Flame does go a long way towards accomplishing the overall goal of protection. 

I'm wondering who might be the best kind of beater to bring with this crew.  The Rail Golem might actually hit pretty well and his Vent Boiler action would be harder to succeed on the Wk duel from the HW condition.

[Mxbedlam]

15 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

At 9 points it's the same cost as Carlos and a points less than 2 Mages (assuming that you bring three). I'm not sure that just reducing the cost by 1 would be enough unless you really needed to be able to remove scrap and corpse markers.

Yeah mages at their discount really discredits a lot of otherwise good options. I don't know if Temp shield was a good fix all in all. 

[KingCrow]

6 minutes ago, Mrbedlam said:

Yeah mages at their discount really discredits a lot of otherwise good options. I don't know if Temp shield was a good fix all in all. 

I don't disagree that the mages are good but they can be shut down easily enough by your enemy (if they are a mobile composition) rushing them.  Then they only have their 0 AP attacks (except for the one mage) to deal with the threat.  I think they require a lot more tactical play when not playing them with Sandeep.  I've personally shut down a few of the mages for 2 turns using just a Malifaux Raptor.  

Again, not saying they aren't good but just require more attention rather than a model like Carlos or Anna. 

[Jinn]

@KingCrow I've found that having an enemy get into melee with my mage ball usually ends pretty badly for them simply because they can so easily be pushed 4-6" out by the melee mage and then have to deal with the other two mages possible furious casting them. Also, that (0) action gets deadly fast when near a few academics, especially for the + mage who has the inbuilt execute. I feel that the Oxfordians are a bit too strong at 15SS for three, at least when combined with the discard the upgrade (and a card) to reduce 2 damage ability.

[Mxbedlam]

2 minutes ago, KingCrow said:

I don't disagree that the mages are good but they can be shut down easily enough by your enemy (if they are a mobile composition) rushing them.  Then they only have their 0 AP attacks (except for the one mage) to deal with the threat.  I think they require a lot more tactical play when not playing them with Sandeep.  I've personally shut down a few of the mages for 2 turns using just a Malifaux Raptor.  

Again, not saying they aren't good but just require more attention rather than a model like Carlos or Anna. 

What I'm saying though is that the space they take for the points is incredible. They aren't especially amazing EXCEPT that they are 15 points for 3 models. In a game that really loves activation control that is huge. And the scale is very narrow. at 6 points they almost never showed up. At 5 points I play them with 3-4 different masters. 

[WWHSD]

2 hours ago, Mrbedlam said:

What I'm saying though is that the space they take for the points is incredible. They aren't especially amazing EXCEPT that they are 15 points for 3 models. In a game that really loves activation control that is huge. And the scale is very narrow. at 6 points they almost never showed up. At 5 points I play them with 3-4 different masters. 

That 1 point reduction also boosted them to 7 Wds. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a model that wouldn't see a lot more play if it got a stone cheaper and 2 Wd more durable.

[Mxbedlam]

Exactly my point. They invalidate a lot of solid options just by that upgrade alone. I don't know why anyone would take 2 gunsmiths over 3 mages now. Sure damage is a little less but the overall utility is huge. 

[spooky_squirrel]

4 hours ago, Jinn said:

Also, that (0) action gets deadly fast when near a few academics, especially for the + mage who has the inbuilt execute.

Reread Nemesis Ward. It doesn't give you the bonus tome always, only when using the (1) attack action (refers to Elemental Bolt by name). For the (0) execution, you'll still need a card tome in the attack duel.

[hydranixx]

Yeah, a Rail Golem seems all kinds of amazing if the opponent is debuffed by Heat Stroke. Even the minimum of -1 Df goes a long way at make things more hittable. You'd still need to commit to hand sculpting in high Tomes to make it worthwhile. 

7 hours ago, KingCrow said:

I've personally shut down a few of the mages for 2 turns using just a Malifaux Raptor.  

To be fair Malifaux Raptors shut down anything based on ranged attacks no questions asked. Every other model will have a far more challenging time staring down 3 mages and trying to lock them in engagement. 

[KingCrow]

4 hours ago, hydranixx said:

Yeah, a Rail Golem seems all kinds of amazing if the opponent is debuffed by Heat Stroke. Even the minimum of -1 Df goes a long way at make things more hittable. You'd still need to commit to hand sculpting in high Tomes to make it worthwhile. 

Stacking your hand with Tomes is a good idea for the RG (of course the damage is nice!) and for Kaeris in general but the gimmicky player inside me is more interested in getting a successful Vent Boiler action off.  😁. Hopefully just all the burning getting spread to 3 or 4 enemy models.  Which then you use to kill the enemies or reapply more Heat Wave!