Shifting Loyalties Cards Should Be Made Available

[Ludvig]

We use our law-given right to make photocopies from the rulebook for personal use and just print our own cards. If you use half-decent paper and keep everything sleeved you hardly notice the difference. You can also shock people on april's fools (or any day really) by ripping apart the card when a model fails a duel  

[koronuslight]

Just now, Ludvig said:

We use our law-given right to make photocopies from the rulebook for personal use and just print our own cards. If you use half-decent paper and keep everything sleeved you hardly notice the difference. You can also shock people on april's fools (or any day really) by ripping apart the card when a model fails a duel  

Really not looking forward to setting up 58 cards, double sided, in Corel to take them to the local Staples (two train stops and 2 miles on foot each way) to have to cut them myself when I get home. That's when my recreational activity stops being a recreational activity and starts being a job 

 

[PraetorDragoon]

Photocopies indeed. Burning gets intersting to apply.

it's just sales they lose. Nothing that keeps you awake at night.

[Breng77]

People make way more of the photo copies than they need to they take little effort to make (don't need to be double sided, where I am at least most people own a copier).  I am totally for wyrd encouraging people to buy their models, we are not owed cards.  Would I like cards sure, because then I save money by proxying things.  But I do that now with copies from the book.  To people claiming they need 58 cards you really don't it sounds like you need 8.(5 emissaries, 3 other models). Then you can just copy the pages for upgrades as you don't need more than one of each.

 

it is easy enough to put copies into sleeves for marking as well.

[Ludvig]

26 minutes ago, koronuslight said:

Really not looking forward to setting up 58 cards, double sided, in Corel to take them to the local Staples (two train stops and 2 miles on foot each way) to have to cut them myself when I get home. That's when my recreational activity stops being a recreational activity and starts being a job 

 

Well when you put it like that you have me feeling sorry for you. My way is more along the lines of quick and dirty using stuff I have at home  

[Ludvig]

That last part sounded better in my head... I have a scanner/printer at home.

[koronuslight]

37 minutes ago, Breng77 said:

People make way more of the photo copies than they need to they take little effort to make (don't need to be double sided, where I am at least most people own a copier).  I am totally for wyrd encouraging people to buy their models, we are not owed cards.  Would I like cards sure, because then I save money by proxying things.  But I do that now with copies from the book.  To people claiming they need 58 cards you really don't it sounds like you need 8.(5 emissaries, 3 other models). Then you can just copy the pages for upgrades as you don't need more than one of each.

 

it is easy enough to put copies into sleeves for marking as well.

If that's what you're satisfied with, then that works for you.

I am not satisfied with 12+ months of waiting for an official card that I am willing to pay for right now. 

We're just different.

[koronuslight]

23 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

That last part sounded better in my head... I have a scanner/printer at home.

No, I think I preferred the other post

[Absolution Black]

1 hour ago, Breng77 said:

People make way more of the photo copies than they need to they take little effort to make (don't need to be double sided, where I am at least most people own a copier).  I am totally for wyrd encouraging people to buy their models, we are not owed cards.  Would I like cards sure, because then I save money by proxying things.  But I do that now with copies from the book.  To people claiming they need 58 cards you really don't it sounds like you need 8.(5 emissaries, 3 other models). Then you can just copy the pages for upgrades as you don't need more than one of each.

 

it is easy enough to put copies into sleeves for marking as well.

Great you can do that.  You obviously have the time and resources.  Unfortunately my family commitments mean that what spare time I have is spent with them.  I can't justify spending a few hours here and there scanning/copying the book to then make cards.  I barely have enough time left to game let alone do extra stuff that really could be a moot point.  I know there is the argument of proxy models from other companies being used over the official model on release, but I am sure I am not the only person who would buy the official model too, out of completeness.

 

[Breng77]

No you are not but plenty of people won't buy it.  I really think you guys are overestimating the time involved with making cards (unless you want every single model and card, at which point I would say to you that you have way more spare time than I do as you are able to assemble all those models and paint them, unless you pay someone to do that.). I have made maybe 20 cards since the game came out and have probably spent less than and hour total doing so.  If you don't want to use photo copies then simply don't use those models.  It is not that I wouldn't rather be able to buy cards, it is that I understand why I can't.  To me it is not the desire to have cards that I find strange it is the outrage I find troublesome.  

[Absolution Black]

But why then should anyone not get the full gaming experience just because they don't have the time, resources or know-how to produce their own cards. Saying don't use those models is not a reason. 

And you say if we have that many models that we obviously had the time to build them means we have the time now to produce cards is a big generalisation. I, and many others, have the avatar models from 1st edition but can't really use them without a lot of hassle.

I think the issue is we have these models (as you can use the earlier avatar models as emissaries) but no cards. Yet all other early edition models had the cards available through the arsenal packs. Why can't an arsenal pack be released for covering these models?

[Absolution Black]

And personally, I am not outraged as you put it.

Just annoyed and disappointed.

[Breng77]

Many people don't have the time and resources to own every model and as such cannot/don't use them, there is no difference other than someone owning/making a proxy and wanting a card.  As for not having the know how or time to produce cards unless you never make models anymore you have the time (I'd say it is a fair generalization that most people have assembled and painted at least a single model in the last year). Especially those that have made proxies for new models (obviously avatars not included as you may have had them previously).  For the know how I have trouble believing anyone that is capable of playing this game is incapable of operating a copier/scanner and a pair of scissors.  Literally that is all I use: copy book page, cut out both sides of card stick in card sleeve with a card or card stock in between (if you don't want to print on cardstock). I use old Magic the gathering land cards.   So I really have a hard time buying the time, and know how argument.  I can buy I want nice cards because they look better, and to get them without official cards getting really nice cards is more difficult.  Getting functional cards is not.  I just feel like this thread comes up seemingly once a month, and it usually reads to me that people feel it is somehow wrong of a company to want you to need to buy their product to use it.

 

as for why no emissary card pack it is probably to keep the product count down for retail locations.

[Absolution Black]

You make some valid points for some people. However, you stated if I don't have a card for that model, or for whatever reason am not able to make that card, then I probably should not use the model. I want to use the model, but don't want to cart around a book plus extra paper to use for wound marks etc. That seems pretty reasonable to me. 

And how can you say that if I make models I have the time to make cards. I appreciate you don't know my personal circumstances but any free time I do get is either spent getting a game in or assembling a back log of minis. I enjoy that aspect and don't really want to spend the hour a week I may get free to assemble some cards that IMO should be available for me to buy to use with the models I have. 

I'm also not saying wyrd are in the wrong doing this, I just find it baffling when they released arsenal packs for players with existing metal 1st Ed models yet won't for the same situation with avatars/ emissaries.

Those people who had metals still had the choice to upgrade to plastic versions if they wanted...I did. Why do I have to wait for the plastic version of the emissary to get an official card when I own a metal avatar. That's the main beef I think myself and others have.

I think I understand why wyrd are doing it, but IMO I don't agree with it. What I say won't change their minds I know, but at least they get some feedback. 

And this thread probably comes up once a month or so because maybe a lot of people feel strongly about it.

[Breng77]

And for emissaries I somewhat agree with you, but unless they are print on demand I think it would be a box with a lot of waste for most people.  But people are also saying well I proxied x and it is not cool that I cannot have a card for my proxy.  I also never said that you shouldn't use the model only that you shouldn't if the available options bother you a ton.  Are there things I would rather do than make cards sure, but you really overestimate the time involved in doing so, IMO you would be giving up an hour (being generous probably less) once and you would have all the cards you will ever need.  As for it coming up to me it has been brought up and answered and people need to move on.  Or email wyrd directly and not clutter up the boards with the same thing over and over.

[dgraz]

38 minutes ago, Breng77 said:

 not clutter up the boards with the same thing over and over.

No insult intended, but don't you think that's a bit hypocritical coming from someone perpetuating the discussion?

[solkan]

2 hours ago, Absolution Black said:

You make some valid points for some people. However, you stated if I don't have a card for that model, or for whatever reason am not able to make that card, then I probably should not use the model. I want to use the model, but don't want to cart around a book plus extra paper to use for wound marks etc. That seems pretty reasonable to me. 

There's a simple question to ask:  If you want to use the model, but don't wish to take the time to prepare to do so, why should anyone else care?

For the reasons why anyone would care, see below.

 

2 hours ago, Absolution Black said:

And how can you say that if I make models I have the time to make cards. I appreciate you don't know my personal circumstances but any free time I do get is either spent getting a game in or assembling a back log of minis. I enjoy that aspect and don't really want to spend the hour a week I may get free to assemble some cards that IMO should be available for me to buy to use with the models I have. 

Then do what you would do for any other inconvenient task:  Find someone else to do it for you, and give them a reason to help (such as money, or companionship).

Dislike assembly and painting of models?  Get someone else to do it for you.  Painting services are not a scandal.

Dislike coming up with ways to track game state?  Get someone else to do it for you.  People make and sell token sets for this sort of thing.

Dislike organizing your cards?  Get someone else to do it for you.  Life coaches, personal assistants, and the rest are not a scandal.

Dislike creating proxy cards on your own?  Get someone else to do it for you.  Would you like to discuss reasonable rates? 

 

Where you run into problems is switching from "I don't want to do this thing" to adding " so I want Wyrd to do it for me."

Wyrd doesn't sell painted figures.  They don't sell Malifaux game tokens, either.  At the moment, they sell two boxes of assembled models.  And they choose not to sell cards for models they haven't produced yet.

 

2 hours ago, Absolution Black said:

I'm also not saying wyrd are in the wrong doing this, I just find it baffling when they released arsenal packs for players with existing metal 1st Ed models yet won't for the same situation with avatars/ emissaries.

Arsenal decks exist because of the following sequence:

1.  Players had official cards for their models.

2.  The official cards the players had all got invalidated.

3.  The intersection of cost and convenience was "Here's an inexpensive box to replace that section of your invalidated cards."

The avatar models have official rules in Shifting Loyalties in the campaign system, as avatars.  That means that the box of cards containing the replacements for invalidated avatar cards is the Shifting Loyalties Campaign Deck.

2 hours ago, Absolution Black said:

Those people who had metals still had the choice to upgrade to plastic versions if they wanted...I did. Why do I have to wait for the plastic version of the emissary to get an official card when I own a metal avatar. That's the main beef I think myself and others have.

The avatar models aren't emmissaries.  They can be used to proxy them, but they're not those models. 

Because the avatars aren't the emissaries, the extra work to use them as emissaries falls to the person doing so.

 

[Breng77]

2 hours ago, dgraz said:

No insult intended, but don't you think that's a bit hypocritical coming from someone perpetuating the discussion?

Seeing as I have never taken part in said discussion before and did not post a new thread about it not really.

[dgraz]

Wow.

[Absolution Black]

5 hours ago, solkan said:

There's a simple question to ask:  If you want to use the model, but don't wish to take the time to prepare to do so, why should anyone else care?

For the reasons why anyone would care, see below.

 

Then do what you would do for any other inconvenient task:  Find someone else to do it for you, and give them a reason to help (such as money, or companionship).

Dislike assembly and painting of models?  Get someone else to do it for you.  Painting services are not a scandal.

Dislike coming up with ways to track game state?  Get someone else to do it for you.  People make and sell token sets for this sort of thing.

Dislike organizing your cards?  Get someone else to do it for you.  Life coaches, personal assistants, and the rest are not a scandal.

Dislike creating proxy cards on your own?  Get someone else to do it for you.  Would you like to discuss reasonable rates? 

 

Where you run into problems is switching from "I don't want to do this thing" to adding " so I want Wyrd to do it for me."

Wyrd doesn't sell painted figures.  They don't sell Malifaux game tokens, either.  At the moment, they sell two boxes of assembled models.  And they choose not to sell cards for models they haven't produced yet.

 

Arsenal decks exist because of the following sequence:

1.  Players had official cards for their models.

2.  The official cards the players had all got invalidated.

3.  The intersection of cost and convenience was "Here's an inexpensive box to replace that section of your invalidated cards."

The avatar models have official rules in Shifting Loyalties in the campaign system, as avatars.  That means that the box of cards containing the replacements for invalidated avatar cards is the Shifting Loyalties Campaign Deck.

The avatar models aren't emmissaries.  They can be used to proxy them, but they're not those models. 

Because the avatars aren't the emissaries, the extra work to use them as emissaries falls to the person doing so.

 

I understand all your points and agree that there is always someone else I could get to do it for me. But I will admit I am a bit of a control freak when it comes to my hobby. I want to do everything myself otherwise to me, it's not a hobby anymore..I'm not getting anything out of it.

I know that I have to wait until the release of the emissary to get the respective cards and at that point I will use the official model. It just irks me that I can't have the official cards until then. I know I can, or someone can make them but I like to have the actual thing, it's just how I am. I'm sure I'm not alone.

I know there is no other way at the moment and that is my issue. Pod of the emissary cards would have been a simple solution IMO, I'm not asking for a separate arsenal box particularly, just access to the official cards.

But maybe this debate has run its course. I won't get the outcome that I or others want and I would hate to clog up the boards with unimportant stuff.

[Ludvig]

The avatars aren't emmissaries but they went from tournament legal standard issue models in 1.5 to being not in the core game rules anymore in v 2.0. This invalidates the models people bought (and they were some of the most expensive models available in the old range). The official proxy solution is intended to fix that issue and so it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect to be able to update old avatars with official cards just like any other model from v 1.5 got the option to be updated with an official new card. Any player could have copied from the book and printed cards for all of their other old metal models.

[Ludvig]

The reason for anyone to care is the informal contract between developer and customer.

The work of writing rules for miniature games is not covered by what we pay for the books but rather by what we pay for the miniatures. The value of the miniatures is also tied to there being a gaming system where I am allowed to use the miniature.

I could easily proxy any model in the game with the hundreds of models I have picked up over the years. The reason I choose to use official wyrd models is in no small part that I want the company to be able to keep writing rules and updating them. I often even buy the official model even if I have a better looking proxy. In return I expect the company to not make my old models invalid in their game since I bought it for the sole purpose of using it in their gaming system. 

[dgraz]

5 hours ago, Ludvig said:

The reason for anyone to care is the informal contract between developer and customer.

The work of writing rules for miniature games is not covered by what we pay for the books but rather by what we pay for the miniatures. The value of the miniatures is also tied to there being a gaming system where I am allowed to use the miniature.

I could easily proxy any model in the game with the hundreds of models I have picked up over the years. The reason I choose to use official wyrd models is in no small part that I want the company to be able to keep writing rules and updating them. I often even buy the official model even if I have a better looking proxy. In return I expect the company to not make my old models invalid in their game since I bought it for the sole purpose of using it in their gaming system. 

So....so much this ^^^^

[koronuslight]

The foundation of the initial point I had in this thread has been mudded up by forum apologists. 

 

You say I am either lazy or do not take this seriously enough to go out and make inferior quality photocopies, and that I shouldn't use models I am not prepared to have to make inferior quality photocopies for. And that is fine. Know that you are entitled to your own opinion, as incredibly inaccurate as it may be.

 

My point is that the book was released 8 months ago. In those 8 months we have not seen a single model and THEREFORE HAVE BEEN FORCED TO PROXY OUR OWN MODELS BY NECESSITY IN THE FIRST PLACE. 

To compound matters, WE WILL NOT BE SEEING THESE SAME MODELS FOR AT LEAST ANOTHER 4 MONTHS, MEANING AN ENTIRE YEAR WITHOUT PLAYER SUPPORT FROM WYRD FOR THOSE OF US FORCED TO MAKE OUR OWN MODELS AND USE LEGAL PROXIES.

To further add to it, THE GAINING GROUNDS RULES CLEARLY STIPULATE THAT 67% OF A PROXY MUST FIRST BE WYRD MATERIALS, AND THEN APPROVED BY THE TO/HENCHMAN AT OFFICIAL EVENTS, SO WYRD STANDS TO LOSE NO MONEY BY RELEASING PRINT ON DEMAND CARDS PRIOR TO MODEL RELEASE BECAUSE THOSE MODELS MAY NOT BE ALLOWED ANYWAY.

Finally, PEOPLE ARE ALWAYS GOING TO MAKE THEIR OWN CONVERSIONS AND USE THEIR OWN PROXIES, EVEN AFTER THE OFFICIAL MODEL IS RELEASED, SO EVEN AFTER THE PRINT ON DEMAND CARDS ARE RELEASED, WYRD STILL WILL NOT GET MONEY FROM THOSE SALES ALL THE SAME. 

 

In summary, do not make thinly veiled personal remarks on public forums. Stick to facts. Facts are good.

[Breng77]

Facts are good.

Fact:no one is forcing you to play with the shifting loyalties models at all.  You choose to do so.  No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to use those models or even play the game at all.  Now if you want to you will need to use proxies and printed cards.

Fact:Wyrd is just now catching up on book 2 models so you have always been aware that the book 3 models would be a while.  Maybe you would prefer they not release new stuff every year if they cannot keep up, but then you would be unable to use avatar models at all.

Fact:It does cost Wyrd sales, I can easily proxy say 5 miniatures out of the Wyrd multiparty kits, which would cost less than buying other boxes to get those same minis.

Fact: the conversion rules only apply to tournament play and so other players may not buy the models at all if they already have good cards and proxies.  Even then TOs are often far more liberal about these things than Wyrd might be (they don't enforce gaining grounds, and the document even says for TOs to use it as they will.)

your last assertion assumes that Wyrd will eventually allow print on demand for all cards.  They may not or there may be a good deal of lag after model releases, so releasing those cards now may very well cost them sales.

 

i will vouch for myself that the arsenal decks cost them some money from me as I hunted down many metal models to use and got them from second hand dealers instead of buying new.  That is no new money for them.  Now this isn't an issue for new models, but having the cards I feel would encourage more proxies than not.

 

I have said all along you are welcome to not like their sales strategy but to believe they won't make more money by forcing at least some model sales is naive.

i also assert that you play up the difficulty of making temporary cards, now they are low quality which you can not like, but they are not a huge difficulty.