Smoke & Shadows

[OneLittleThunder]

This is one of those upgrades that I haven't tried yet but would really like to make work; teleporting minions sound fantastic, right? However, it also looks like it's really card-intensive, and I wonder if the investment is worth it.

My thoughts (and again, this is all theoryfaux so far):

• When do you use it? The teleport tricks look useful for a number of the new Schemes (Occupy their Turn, Public Demonstration, and Inspection come to mind). Extra credit if Hunting Party is in the pool, since minions using it won't be vulnerable during most of the turn. It also seems like it would add a lot of flexibility to Strategies like Reconnoiter, Interference, Turf War, and Extraction, since the sudden appearance of models right before scoring leaves your opponent no chance to react.
• Who carries the Upgrade? Yamaziko seems like the obvious choice; she's inexpensive, reasonably mobile, and her Master Tactician attack has become a lot more potent now that all the GG2016 Schemes start unrevealed. Ototo is more expensive and seems generally less useful. Misaki is an option if she's your master and has space for it.
• Who benefits? Three choices: Oiran, Torakage, and Jorogumo. Oiran are the cheapest, so maybe good if you just need numbers (e.g., Occupy their Turf or Public Demonstration); someone should definitely carry Hidden Agenda for them as well. Torakage are faster and (slightly) better at fighting, but maybe not quite so durable. Jorogumo are big, beaty monsters that can be pretty tough, but they're expensive, and if they're not on the board they're not killing things. Then again, plopping a Jorogumo's 3" melee range on a 50mm base in the middle of an enemy gang can really ruin someone's day in Interference...
• How do you make it work? The (2) Shadow Stride action needs a 6 to go off, which means a straight flip will work about 17% of the time. Focus can certainly help, but I still don't like those odds if I'm spending 2 AP to do it, so I think you want to have the card in hand...so you're usually probably not going to be able to do this more than once a turn. Or you could take the (1) Smoke Bombs action, which will definitely get you some LoS-blocking markers and, with a , let you take Shadow Stride for free with +2 to the cast. Smoke Bombs itself needs an 8 of anything (48%), but if you want the trigger, that drops to 13%...and then you still need a 4+ (76%) to get Shadow Stride to work. Basically, however you want to do it, you're probably gonna be spending some cards.
• How can you make it more reliable? Other than having card draw to give you better odds of having the right card available, the best addition I can think of is Mr. Tannen, whose Leave it to Luck (0) action gives +2 to the value of any Masks flipped or played within 6" of him. You still need the Masks, but can get by with lower ones. It's certainly not worth bringing Tannen just for this, but in situations where his other abilities are useful (Headhunter and Turf War/Extraction come to mind), he might be a good add. Having cheap Focus available (via Shenlong or the Shadow Emissary) can also help. Maybe an Obey (a la Ama No Zako) to let folks use Smoke Bombs after they've already used their own AP?

So...that's how Smoke & Shadows looks to me on paper. Who out there has actual experience with it, and how has it worked for you?

[ScareMeTrav]

Thanks for listing out the statistics. I was excited to use it for the first time before I realized how difficult it was to get the teleport off. 

[BigHammer]

If the trigger goes off on Smoke Bombs, the Shadow Stride action only requires a 4+, not a 6+, but aside from that it's a pretty complete summary.

The Smoke Bombs action alone can be a fantastic ability, blocking line of sight for charges (beware Lady Justice!) and shooting of most sorts (beware Hans?), and even having one model carefully positioned by a Shadow Stride can be a big deal.

[newsun]

I tried it, didn't like the requirement of the suit and found Torakage to be too expensive for their role.

Now when I tested it, I was facing mostly melee crews so the smoke by itself was not that useful.

Overall I'm kinda meh on the whole situation there.

[Patzer]

10 hours ago, newsun said:

I tried it, didn't like the requirement of the suit and found Torakage to be too expensive for their role.

Now when I tested it, I was facing mostly melee crews so the smoke by itself was not that useful.

Overall I'm kinda meh on the whole situation there.

Pretty much my experienced summed up too. It is a little more interesting with the Jorogumo out. Who will do another job than Torakage. 

Smoke markers can be pretty good against shooting, like Guild or Trappers. Problem is that you have to guess correctly if you are going to face some shooting or not, might not always be worth the gamble. 

[OneLittleThunder]

13 hours ago, BigHammer said:

If the trigger goes off on Smoke Bombs, the Shadow Stride action only requires a 4+, not a 6+, but aside from that it's a pretty complete summary.

Good catch - let me fix that. Thanks!

[MrDeathTrout]

I've only tried S&S a few times. IMHO any suited action on a non-SS using model is something you should not plan on using in a game.  They're just too unreliable and take too many resources if you try to force them.  So I design and play my crew as if they will never go off and if the right circumstances come up in a game I take it as a bonus.

With the addition of Jorogumo I've been be meaning to get back to trying it out, but still haven't put a serious effort into making it work.

[Eclipse]

On 2/25/2016 at 1:06 AM, BigHammer said:

The Smoke Bombs action alone can be a fantastic ability, blocking line of sight for charges (beware Lady Justice!) and shooting of most sorts (beware Hans?), and even having one model carefully positioned by a Shadow Stride can be a big deal.

You are correct, however keep in mind that Hans can ignore effects that generate LoS blocking such as Neverborn forests or our Smoke markers

18 hours ago, MrDeathTrout said:

I've only tried S&S a few times. IMHO any suited action on a non-SS using model is something you should not plan on using in a game.  They're just too unreliable and take too many resources if you try to force them.  So I design and play my crew as if they will never go off and if the right circumstances come up in a game I take it as a bonus.

With the addition of Jorogumo I've been be meaning to get back to trying it out, but still haven't put a serious effort into making it work.

Yeah, I feel the same, it's definitely not something you can count on, but rather a possible game changer with the right circumstances. I also got excited when I learned the Jorogumo can plop around the board too. When they come out I will most probably be trying S&S with them as well.

[BigHammer]

29 minutes ago, Eclipse said:

You are correct, however keep in mind that Hans can ignore effects that generate LoS blocking such as Neverborn forests or our Smoke markers

 

Not sure if you misunderstood what I meant here; The player using S&S should beware Lady Justice because she ignores LoS for making charges, so can just charge straight through the smoke, and they should beware Hans because he ignores markers for LoS, so he can just shoot straight through them. Fair to say I had kept Hans in mind when I mentioned him

[Misery Rex]

Clockwork traps are cheap and can be placed just about anywhere at the start of the game.

[Eclipse]

On 27.02.2016 г. at 1:33 PM, BigHammer said:

Not sure if you misunderstood what I meant here; The player using S&S should beware Lady Justice because she ignores LoS for making charges, so can just charge straight through the smoke, and they should beware Hans because he ignores markers for LoS, so he can just shoot straight through them. Fair to say I had kept Hans in mind when I mentioned him

I see, maybe I misread something at the time, I don't remember

On 27.02.2016 г. at 3:47 PM, Misery Rex said:

Clockwork traps are cheap and can be placed just about anywhere at the start of the game.

A very nauseating combo is Yamaziko w/S&S, 2-3 models that can jump around - potentially! - as well as a Guild Pathfinder or two. You are able to constantly reshape the battlefield, putting traps in the path of enemies while allowing you on (rare) occasions to shadowport your minions somewhere difficult to predict. You narrow the line of sight (or the shooting lanes) with Smoke markers, Brace Yamaziko to protect from possible charges and even potentially get an archer or two to shoot from behind cover AND smoke. Just the fact that your opponent has to keep all possible combinations and possibilities is going to give them headache alone

[Skitt_Happens]

I've used it a couple of times and, after the first time when I tried to top deck it, with a bit of planning you can fairly reliable get a couple of models jumping a turn. I always seem to have middling 's in my hand. 6-7 is a shadow stride, 8+ to smoke bomb. The markers are just a bonus.

Particularly useful in Stake a Claim. Had a game where turn one a torakage and an oran both stride, one torakage went up one flank and Misaki up the other. Turn 2 I was able to place 2 claim markers 7" into opponents half in standard deployment. My opponent never came back from that. Combine with Hidden Agenda and Oiran: you can cause all sorts of mischief.

[MrDeathTrout]

I might have to try a Smoke and Shadows list in our next campaign.  I like to take models I either don't like or just haven't figured out how to use yet in campaigns.  It forces me to figure out how to use them better.  I also like to take models that are "missing" a key component (say Archers with no Blot the Sky) so I have to figure out how to use them in ways I'm not used to.

I never take Torakage (don't fit my play style) or Oiran (IMHO there is always a better option for the points) I think a Yamziko, Smoke & Shadows, Hidden Agenda, Oiran and Torakage list to start will be perfect for my next campaign.

[Yvarre]

I've been trying an S&S list with Lynch for Recon and Interference with Ototo as the S&S bearer.  I personally find Ototo to be an amazing Beatstick who, especially for Interference, can tie up large portions of the board on his own and reliably kill most things (especially on his enraged Recalled training turn) while being pretty damn durable with a couple of stones.  The combo of tying models up and killing them with Ototo and Huggy and Lynch's consistent ability to kill things makes for all the damage I need, and it leaves room for the Torakage to scheme/hunt scheme runners and the Oiran (who get fast just watching Huggy) to Teleport on a mid mask or Lure on a high crow after Lynch stacks the hand.  Fast Oiran also can dig a bit more for a mask to get the trigger off of smoke bombs, cheating in Aces to miss placing smoke bombs if legal placement becomes an issue.

This list covers a good many bases for me too; having Henchmen and extremely mobile minions, it can adapt to a good many schemes from Show of Force to the minion schemes mentioned in the OP.  Also between the smokebombs and the potential to teleport, it gives some good options for the Torakage and Oiran to control the board and escape from danger.  I also really love rapid fire on Torakages, especially with the built-in Leaf Steps Trigger.

[afeinman]

S&S is a mainstay of my Misaki list. Take it with at least two Torakage. (I haven't tried it yet with Jorogumo, and I rarely shift Oiran around, but it's nice to have the opportunity.)

What S&S provides is tactical flexibility. You get to decide where your ninjas land, after a turn is already over but before scoring. This is huge! Some uses:

1. In Reconnoiter, park a model near the seam between quarters, then drop a ninja in whichever quarter needs numbers.

2. Drop a ninja (or two!) around the enemy leader to Deliver A Message at the start of the next turn.

3. Decide where to reinforce. If you've got two or three one-on-ones happening, as often happens when TT minions tie up enemies, have a Torakage drop in to swing the balance of power.

4. Drop into engagement with two or more enemies. Odds are next turn you'll get a chance to Exhaust, Distract, screw them over for Interference, or whatever it is you want to do. If one of the enemies walks away, you can exhaust the other one and still skidaddle out of combat. Worst case, the enemy model ends up turning around and killing your torakage instead of doing whatever they were going to do.

5. Drop an Oiran in a forward location to lure people sideways.

6. Drop an Oiran or Torakage in a hard-to-reach location for things like dropping Stash markers.

7. Leave a Torakage deep in your own zone for things like Power Ritual, then have them teleport to a more useful position after luring enemies toward them.

The key is to think about what other models need to be positioned first. I'll sometimes throw Misaki forward her full movement (or kill someone on the way, yay) just to have an anchor point for Torakage to roll in.

And yeah, you need a decent Mask in hand. If you don't have it, give up on S&S for that turn and accomplish something else. Come back when the cards are there.

[Gennosuke]

Thing is, in a Misaki list, you *should* want to have both Misdirection and Stalking Bisento. That means two things:

- If you are playing well, you'll have a hand of five cards (except maybe turn five), as you'll discard one each turn to stalk

- Any (not too high) masks in your hand, you'll want to keep it to trigger Misdirection.

That leaves you with a limited control over your hand, and S&S is highly dependat in your hand. Maybe you'll have masks to spare, but it'll be at the cost of drainning off your hand a little further.

I've brought S&S countless times to the table, hoping for the best, but really just in a few (a really little few) occasions has it been worthy.

[Patzer]

On 2016-04-06 at 6:33 PM, Gennosuke said:

Thing is, in a Misaki list, you *should* want to have both Misdirection and Stalking Bisento. That means two things:

- If you are playing well, you'll have a hand of five cards (except maybe turn five), as you'll discard one each turn to stalk

- Any (not too high) masks in your hand, you'll want to keep it to trigger Misdirection.

That leaves you with a limited control over your hand, and S&S is highly dependat in your hand. Maybe you'll have masks to spare, but it'll be at the cost of drainning off your hand a little further.

I've brought S&S countless times to the table, hoping for the best, but really just in a few (a really little few) occasions has it been worthy.

My experience as well. Also agree on the Misdirection point. 

However, SaS is certainly more interesting with Jorogumo. Just the threat of that happening should throw some wrenches into the opponents planning. With that said, still think its too unreliable.