Meta and me

[D_acolyte]

I have done a post on opportunity cost and on revs of your crew, those are in the faction section. Now you might be wondering why this person with probably atrocious grammar is doing this, well the answer is simple because these things are in the Meta but not talked about often. So I decided to be the change I want to have happen, and talk about parts of the Meta that get glossed over. So to day I will be talking about the Meta: what is Meta, what levels/type of Meta there are, how it is used and how style interact with it.
We have seen that Wyrd recognized that the Meta is a living thing and has no problem working. Where have been a lot of changes that affect the Meta recently, the emissaries which upgrades are directly response to the Meta, the changes to metal gamin, and now the new gaining grounds tournament rules all are having an effect on the Meta.
What is Meta:
When I think of Meta I tend to see it as Meta-analysis. In gaming each person with an opinion is a different study and the combined opinion of these people allows for a find of the "truth" in this game.
Levels of Meta:
The level of the Meta is based on where you are getting the data from. There is a local level, regional level, global level (cough the forum cough). When looking at the Meta the most important to a player is local Meta you are in. My recommendation to anyone trying to look at this is to take notes on masters, key models and terrain that is run in your area and that should help you figure out your local Meta.
The issue is that most people turn to the web as the be all and end all on when the Meta should be, this is not the case it is more important to focus on your local Meta and use the web as a very general supplement. I mostly use Pull My Finger to help me understand the mechanics of a master or model then what they should take. If how the net affects society interests you then watch this youtube, it is an interesting opinion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQirYEU2LOo
Types of Meta:
This is casual, tournament, theory and vassal Meta types.
Casual or pic up games are the simplest type, even if you using Gaining Grounds rules it all about having fun and win, draw or loss.
Tournament Meta is about can have a lot of component, mostly around placement and how to maximize your differential. This has a lot to do with scheme selection, there is an article in Wyrd Chronicle 14 that might help with this called Diving into the Deep End of the Scheme Pool. Yes I have no problem point people at the chronicles. I am not a great tournament player often I come in just under the top 3.
Theory Meta or as I call it My Meta is Better, generally I have no love of this unless you are trying to do very simple comparisons. The reason for it is because theory tends to favor straight power but not versatility, I would recommend NOT to take Theory Meta too seriously as often it is highly slanted. An example of obvious Theory Meta: ________ model is great/horrible from a person that has never played it or played opposite of it.
PS: Just saying I think hunting party is great for shining some light onto models not often seen such as Samurai. I have tried a Samurai in hunting party and his versatility was great.
Vassal Meta is not something I feel conferrable talking about other then it exist as it would mostly be Theory Meta from me so if anyone who can talk about it please do.
Using Meta:
So fielding Izamu because someone on Pull My Finger is not using the Meta it is fallowing a trend. Meta is made up of a bunch of data it has trends in the data, this when something rises in popularity or dies in popularity. If you want to use the Meta you have to figure out the reason behind the trend fallowing that you can use the reason that model is good more precisely or you can counter that reason.
For instance: a gremlin tried playing Gracie taxing Burt with reactivating and it ended up being killed first turn to a gunsmith who loaded armor penetrating rounds. The player stated this should have worked, pull my finger said it should work, why did it not? This is because they focused on what other have done with it and not understanding that you do not run towards an anti-armor model because that cancels out Gracie’s resilience.
Style of play:
I am going to generalize this into soft and hard and touch on them only a little.
Soft style is less based on confrontation and what your enemy is running and more with what you can accomplish. A good example is bodyguard and brake through with the Mechanical Rider. Control and support build masters are often a big part of this style. Attacks are often geared toward other purposes, such as Insidious Madness hitting an enemy for 1 point but the real purpose is to give them a -1 to willpower so they fail a horror check. If you want to read up on it then the Peaceful Malifaux article in Wyrd Chronicle 16 will help.
The Hard Style is more confrontational. Often you will focus on killing models and then scoring or scoring while you are killing. Players that favor this tend to play with multiple high damage dealers. Things such as make them suffer or hunting party are good schemes for this type of play. If some people say Soft Style comes at the game sideways then Hard Style comes at the game strait forward.
How do these styles interact with the Meta, the answer is a lot. Sensei Yu is a soft style model that according to sum can print VP where I am very meh when I see my enemy with him as I tend to be too fast and aggressive for him to start the printing press. So the style that you play will affect how you see model and deal with them which inter changes how meaningful the Meta opinion of the model is for you. Most people will be a mix of the two style but tend to be in one more than another.

I am now 3 into hopefully 13 posts, please make any suggestion on tops in a pm or response. I remember someone posted about me expanding the Rev idea and seeing where I go with it, I will probably get to that in an in two months but if you cannot wait then I recommend reading up on movement tricks in the Professor Pontificates in Wyrd Chronical 10.
I originally was going to do this in February but strike while the iron is hot, not sure if I will get another one done for next month.

[Math Mathonwy]

20 hours ago, D_acolyte said:

When I think of Meta I tend to see it as Metadata, or data collected from multiple sources. In case anyone does not know this is an actual thing in statistic and can be useful.

Because about 90% of my work is about dealiing with metadata, I feel obligated to correct here a bit. Metadata is data about data. For example, you might have a document which contains data and then data about that document. Metadata is often divided into structural metadata (date of creation, who made it, and so on) and descriptive metadata (what the content is about). You can layer more metas on top - metametadata is metadata about metadata. Meta-meta-meta-meta-meta-meta-data is often referred to as 6-meta-data.

[Math Mathonwy]

20 hours ago, D_acolyte said:

So fielding Izamu because someone on Pull My Finger is not using the Meta it is fallowing a trend. Meta is made up of a bunch of data it has trends in the data, this when something rises in popularity or dies in popularity. If you want to use the Meta you have to figure out the reason behind the trend fallowing that you can use the reason that model is good more precisely or you can counter that reason.

I can't comprehend what you're saying here. Consider writing it again?

20 hours ago, D_acolyte said:

For instance: a gremlin tried playing Gracie taxing Burt with reactivating and it ended up being killed first turn to a gunsmith who loaded armor penetrating rounds. The player stated this should have worked, pull my finger said it should work, why did it not? This is because they focused on what other have done with it and not understanding that you do not run towards an anti-armor model because that cancels out Gracie’s resilience.

Having an Armor-ignoring model on the opposing side of the table doesn't really have much to do with meta, though. It's simply bad play to run Gracie into it and the reason for that likely isn't that PMF said that Gracie taxi works but more that they didn't know that a Gunsmith could do that.

[D_acolyte]

1 hour ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Because about 90% of my work is about dealiing with metadata, I feel obligated to correct here a bit. Metadata is data about data. For example, you might have a document which contains data and then data about that document. Metadata is often divided into structural metadata (date of creation, who made it, and so on) and descriptive metadata (what the content is about). You can layer more metas on top - metametadata is metadata about metadata. Meta-meta-meta-meta-meta-meta-data is often referred to as 6-meta-data.

Sorry if I was not clear enough, I am trying to get at meta analysis which is supposed to find the "truth" behind multiple studies. Sorry it was an error on my part and I will correct it now.

[D_acolyte]

1 hour ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I can't comprehend what you're saying here. Consider writing it again?

original:

22 hours ago, D_acolyte said:

So fielding Izamu because someone on Pull My Finger is not using the Meta it is fallowing a trend. Meta is made up of a bunch of data it has trends in the data, this when something rises in popularity or dies in popularity. If you want to use the Meta you have to figure out the reason behind the trend fallowing that you can use the reason that model is good more precisely or you can counter that reason.

rewritten:

Lots of people in at least my local meta and to a degree on other sources will talk about how good Izamu is, but if a person is just fallowing the trend and not understanding why the trend is there then they are not really using the Meta. If you are not using the Meta to find why something is good then you can not necessarily counter or necessarily utilize it to its maximum.

Does that help?

 

 

1 hour ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Having an Armor-ignoring model on the opposing side of the table doesn't really have much to do with meta, though. It's simply bad play to run Gracie into it and the reason for that likely isn't that PMF said that Gracie taxi works but more that they didn't know that a Gunsmith could do that.

I disagree, you could claim it more experience but it still deal with the Meta. Armor sees a lot of play at my LGS when this was happening, I could literally count the number of games with out an armor 2+ model for 3 weeks on one hand, alternatively I could do the same with games that ran anti armor models also on one hand. The decision to bring anti armor to the game was made because of this fact, the "truth" of the game was that armor was the way to win to a good amount of players where as to me the "truth" was if I want to survive in a plan then I need to have a decent anti armor.

When I was playing Arcanist, I used the Gunsmith because I valued New Chamber for the versatility which even now tends to go against there Meta when compared to the hard way.

Currently there is less armor in my local Meta, but it does come up ever once and a while, though, the riders are strong in my Meta right now and so I will make time to assemble Iggy.

Does that help connect the dots for you?

[Adran]

Tha'ts not what I mean when I refer to the meta.

The "Meta" is normally refering to metagame rather than metadata.

Its playing the game, beyond the game. 

So its more a case of Lots of people in 1 area are playing Hoffman crews, so using anti armour models when you face guild helps you play the metagame. You are using Knowledge beyond that of the game for the purpose of the game.  (or at least thats how I read it when  people are talking about the meta).

Not so much the source of the information, but how the game is played is what makes the meta. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[D_acolyte]

8 minutes ago, Adran said:

Tha'ts not what I mean when I refer to the meta.

The "Meta" is normally refering to metagame rather than metadata.

Its playing the game, beyond the game. 

So its more a case of Lots of people in 1 area are playing Hoffman crews, so using anti armour models when you face guild helps you play the metagame. You are using Knowledge beyond that of the game for the purpose of the game.  (or at least thats how I read it when  people are talking about the meta).

Not so much the source of the information, but how the game is played is what makes the meta. 

I am aware that the Meta refers to the Metagame but when you are trying to apply it on any level you are still using data and you are still making choice based on that data with even really basic analysis. Most of the data will be categorical, such as: what master is being used, what schemes are taken. There will be also quantitative data: how many models, how many soul stones. This is something you could almost visualize as columns and rows such as:

player	faction	master	SS Pool	Models	Scheme #1
D_Acolyte	Neverborn	Pandora	5	7	Breakthrough
player 2	Guild	McCabe	7	8	Make them suffer
player 3	Gremlins	Wong	6	10	Make them suffer

The more sources you have the closer your analysis can get to a "truth" and the more obtuse some of this information becomes. Which is where figuring out why something holds a place in the Meta is important.

If you do not believe that then try tracking the models and faction of everyone in your gaming group over time and see what you get. Some models will show up more than others and so will various scheme choices. Really the amount you can get can be mind blowing and this what is below is only a short list.
player, date, faction, master, master upgrade number, henchmen 1, henchmen 2, enforcer number, crew number, totem, deployment, models with flight, models with armor 1, models with incorporeal, models with armor 2+, models with other damage reduction, rider, summoned, control models, support models, upgrade number, limited upgrade name

And that all just what you can get from watching, if you are playing you can see how cards are used, final score, schemes and a lot more.

[Math Mathonwy]

22 hours ago, D_acolyte said:

original:

rewritten:

Lots of people in at least my local meta and to a degree on other sources will talk about how good Izamu is, but if a person is just fallowing the trend and not understanding why the trend is there then they are not really using the Meta. If you are not using the Meta to find why something is good then you can not necessarily counter or necessarily utilize it to its maximum.

Does that help?

It does, thank you.

22 hours ago, D_acolyte said:

I disagree, you could claim it more experience but it still deal with the Meta. Armor sees a lot of play at my LGS when this was happening, I could literally count the number of games with out an armor 2+ model for 3 weeks on one hand, alternatively I could do the same with games that ran anti armor models also on one hand. The decision to bring anti armor to the game was made because of this fact, the "truth" of the game was that armor was the way to win to a good amount of players where as to me the "truth" was if I want to survive in a plan then I need to have a decent anti armor.

When I was playing Arcanist, I used the Gunsmith because I valued New Chamber for the versatility which even now tends to go against there Meta when compared to the hard way.

Currently there is less armor in my local Meta, but it does come up ever once and a while, though, the riders are strong in my Meta right now and so I will make time to assemble Iggy.

Does that help connect the dots for you?

Yes, taking anti-armor when your local scene is full of armor is metagaming, agreed. But the way you presented the Gracie example didn't have anything to do with metagaming. Unless your point was that the Gracie player was wrong to even take Gracie since he should've known that Armor is useless in your environment since it is so prevalent that everyone is tooling against it.

I'm not 100% sure what your aim is with these articles but I think that you could collect them someplace as a resource for gamers. I was offering critique on what to change in order to make it a more useful resource.

I do think that your presentation is more convoluted than necessary and I'm not exactly sure whether I agree with all of it or not (I do know I agree with Adran but I'm not sure whether you're agreeing of disagreeing with him).

[Adran]

I still can't work out what you are saying in this one. 

 

So If I pick Izamu because "everyone" says he is great I'm just following the trend. And am probably not going to get the most out of him because I don't really know why he is great just that he is.

If I pick Izamu because I want a durable model with a high damage output, I'm using "theory Meta". If I watch and play Izamu in club games, and see that he a pain to kill, and is good at killing other models I'm using "Casual meta" but if I play him in Reckoning  and head hunter because he generally doesn't give up VPs due to his Warriors death then its "Tournament meta" ?

Is this what you're trying to say with this example? 

 

I can't really see how Vassel data is different to local data, its just a different definition of Local. 

 

I agree with some things you're saying but others I'm still lost. Not sure what you mean when you say  meta, and how you are using the metadata

 

 

[D_acolyte]

3 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I'm not 100% sure what your aim is with these articles but I think that you could collect them someplace as a resource for gamers. I was offering critique on what to change in order to make it a more useful resource.

So there are several point to these.

First is to examine elements of the game I think are often not looked at or glossed over.

Second is to make people of these, including myself.

Third, I find that simple statement have much deeper implications then even the person say might get such as: Teddy is good at fighting because of flurry. This one statement has an implication on possible opportunity cost, the models timing, and the style the model leans towards but if you do not think that way then you are missing the implications.

Also if you did not notice I have an undertone at least in this one that is anti global Meta and pro local Meta.

Feel free to critique, I think discussion on the topics is important and I will make edits when needed, especially if I make an error.

3 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I do think that your presentation is more convoluted than necessary and I'm not exactly sure whether I agree with all of it or not (I do know I agree with Adran but I'm not sure whether you're agreeing of disagreeing with him).

Probably is a bit convoluted but that is partly because of how my mind works and the topic have a lot of parts to the and implications that I am trying to touch on but not go super in-depth. As for me disagreeing with the Hoffman crew example, I am not. He is going with a simple given X I take Y and calling it playing the Meta-game where I am saying that if get more information then I can refine it and that the games Meta is a collection of these observations, test, and opinions for a sort of Meta-analyses to find the "truth" for a given level of Meta. The difference is methodology and a few other parts.

Note I put "truth" quotes because I do not think there is a truth.

2 hours ago, Adran said:

So If I pick Izamu because "everyone" says he is great I'm just following the trend. And am probably not going to get the most out of him because I don't really know why he is great just that he is.

If I pick Izamu because I want a durable model with a high damage output, I'm using "theory Meta". If I watch and play Izamu in club games, and see that he a pain to kill, and is good at killing other models I'm using "Casual meta" but if I play him in Reckoning  and head hunter because he generally doesn't give up VPs due to his Warriors death then its "Tournament meta" ?

Is this what you're trying to say with this example? 

I am saying that taking a model because according to X it is good without understanding when you want to use him vs say a Rouge Necromancy is a poor side efect of the Meta and not really using the Meta. To be honest I would have probably been better to use an example that is not looked kindly on by most Metas and say this is useful to get a similar point across. I feel that for the most part the models in Malifaux are well constructed and each have a roll just as long as you do not cut that roll in half or force a good model into a roll it is not meant for.

As for Tournament Meta VS Casual Meta it is more about controlling the differentials, guessing schemes and how gaining grounds is different from normal games. For instance the best place to be going into the final round of a Tournament is 3 as it has the best bet both 1 and 2 to claim victory. So it is playing the games to maximize the differentials which is different from just winning and playing the tournament standings.

2 hours ago, Adran said:

I can't really see how Vassel data is different to local data, its just a different definition of Local. 

I am not sure because I do not play Vassal but I would suspect that the boards are different (I have even seen one post about the amount of terrain being different) and defiantly the pool of players are different because it is closer to a sampling from multiple local Metas instead of everyone being form one local Meta but that is just a theory that cause me not to lump Vassal and Local into one Meta level.

2 hours ago, Adran said:

I agree with some things you're saying but others I'm still lost. Not sure what you mean when you say  meta, and how you are using the metadata

Ok on this I meant Meta Analysis, which is taking multiple similar studies to find the truth behind them. We the players are the studies, the data is all our experience and observation which are often used to support our end results and when we get together and compare these result we in fact are forming a truth around the meta of the game at a given point of time. Theory Meta is also an important part of this but to a lesser degree because it has less backing to it than experience. I am not if you remember the open betas for books 1-3 or participated in them but that is why Justin asked for battle reports and valued those more than theory crafting when making changes to the beta.

[solkan]

My only apology for this is that I don't think I quite got the rhythm of the original jingle. 

My Meta, My Meta, Wherever I go, it goes. My Meta, My Meta, it becomes everything that I know.

My Meta, My Meta, where we play our games. My meta and me, analyzing all our games.

My Meta, My Meta, My Meta and Me!

And if you don't know the My Buddy jingle, you're too darned young. 

 

[Math Mathonwy]

6 hours ago, solkan said:

And if you don't know the My Buddy jingle, you're too darned young. 

Spoken like a true cultural imperialist!