Jakob Lynch: Woke Up with a Hand and The Rising Sun

[Yvarre]

Jakob Lynch's upgrade "Woke up with a Hand" states that he may draw two cards if he is the last friendly model to activate this turn.  His upgrade "The Rising Sun" buries the Hungering Darkness fully healed if he would be killed.  When the Hungering Darkness is buried but hasn't activated and Lynch is the last model in play to activate, does Lynch draw the two cards as the Hungering Darkness cannot activate without being in play?

[Math Mathonwy]

Yes he does. Buried models are not counted when checking for unactivated models.

This was answered when asked about Tara's Reactivate but it never made it into the FAQ.

[solkan]

1 hour ago, Shadowfane said:

Given that Candy can deal 3 damage to a Death Marshall if he's the last to activate that turn with Sours, and then (if that Death Marshall has a friendly model in the pine box) deal 3 damage to THAT model with Sours when it activates (as it's now the last to activate) I''m going to go with Yes, Lynch can draw cards even if Huggy is buried if he activates last.

Sours: If an enemy model Activates within 3 of this model, and it is the last model in its Crew to Activate this Turn, it immediately suffers 3 damage.

Given that the same situation happens if Model X is the last model in existence, it activates, suffers damage, and even though it might then summon a new model which is now the last model to activate and you're not expected to call Aionus (or The Doctor) to judge the matter, I'm not going to disagree.  

I'm just saying that "buried models don't count" isn't the crux of the matter. 

[solkan]

For reference and relevance:

Tara's action:

(0) Eternal Moment: This Action may only be taken if this was the first friendly model to Activate this Turn. This model gains the following Condition until the end of the Turn: "Eternal: Once all other friendly models have Activated, this model gains the Reactivate Condition."

and Lynch's ability

Woke Up With A Hand: When this model Activates, if all other friendly models have Activated during the Turn, this model draws 2 cards.

I believe these are the two threads which are being referenced:  http://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/101932-tara-bomb-doesnt-work/?do=findComment&comment=739405

and http://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/108671-when-has-a-model-activated/#comment-840658

Now, I think it's reasonable to speculate that when the developer posts an unofficial answer and that answer doesn't arrive in the FAQ then the explanation given in the forum isn't quite correct.  After all, if there was a model on the table that could not activate for some reason, you'd expect that to be treated the same as a model that could not activate because it was buried, right?

 

[Shadowfane]

14 hours ago, solkan said:

For reference and relevance:

Tara's action:

(0) Eternal Moment: This Action may only be taken if this was the first friendly model to Activate this Turn. This model gains the following Condition until the end of the Turn: "Eternal: Once all other friendly models have Activated, this model gains the Reactivate Condition."

and Lynch's ability

Woke Up With A Hand: When this model Activates, if all other friendly models have Activated during the Turn, this model draws 2 cards.

I believe these are the two threads which are being referenced:  http://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/101932-tara-bomb-doesnt-work/?do=findComment&comment=739405

and http://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/108671-when-has-a-model-activated/#comment-840658

Now, I think it's reasonable to speculate that when the developer posts an unofficial answer and that answer doesn't arrive in the FAQ then the explanation given in the forum isn't quite correct.  After all, if there was a model on the table that could not activate for some reason, you'd expect that to be treated the same as a model that could not activate because it was buried, right?

 

Given that Candy can deal 3 damage to a Death Marshall if he's the last to activate that turn with Sours, and then (if that Death Marshall has a friendly model in the pine box) deal 3 damage to THAT model with Sours when it activates (as it's now the last to activate) I''m going to go with Yes, Lynch can draw cards even if Huggy is buried if he activates last.

[Tawg]

On 1/1/2016 at 0:13 PM, solkan said:

Sours: If an enemy model Activates within 3 of this model, and it is the last model in its Crew to Activate this Turn, it immediately suffers 3 damage.

Given that the same situation happens if Model X is the last model in existence, it activates, suffers damage, and even though it might then summon a new model which is now the last model to activate and you're not expected to call Aionus (or The Doctor) to judge the matter, I'm not going to disagree.  

I'm just saying that "buried models don't count" isn't the crux of the matter. 

It would have been more wordy (Or perhaps it could simply be an FAQ answer explaining what "last model in it's Crew to Activate this Turn" means), but something along the lines of "If a model Activates bla bla, and it was the only model available to Activate." would make it "sound" less odd.

But I think that functionally, this is the intention, and as of right now, I know of nothing in the game that could possibly remove a model from being chosen to Activate beyond being Buried.

So while we can point fingers at words and claim it's not supported by English, I believe this is not a matter that is muddled beyond belief.  Although I will admit to trying to apply English to Malifaux rules and determining an outcome that is not intended by design.  Such as with the newest iteration of Mei Feng's Conflux, which I still think can be read incorrectly within the rules, despite being told I am just being hard headed.

[Math Mathonwy]

On 1/3/2016 at 3:32 AM, Tawg said:

It would have been more wordy (Or perhaps it could simply be an FAQ answer explaining what "last model in it's Crew to Activate this Turn" means), but something along the lines of "If a model Activates bla bla, and it was the only model available to Activate." would make it "sound" less odd.

But I think that functionally, this is the intention, and as of right now, I know of nothing in the game that could possibly remove a model from being chosen to Activate beyond being Buried.

So while we can point fingers at words and claim it's not supported by English, I believe this is not a matter that is muddled beyond belief.  Although I will admit to trying to apply English to Malifaux rules and determining an outcome that is not intended by design.  Such as with the newest iteration of Mei Feng's Conflux, which I still think can be read incorrectly within the rules, despite being told I am just being hard headed.

Check out Depression Upgrade's Melancholy Attack Action and the Condition Nobody Likes Me. Your suggestion would change how things work currently.

[Tawg]

3 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Check out Depression Upgrade's Melancholy Attack Action and the Condition Nobody Likes Me. Your suggestion would change how things work currently.

I already considered that it would change how things play out, and yes Nobody Likes Me does alter the way things function under my suggestion.  But I knew it wasn't identical to the current wording, I was just seeing if it could be re-worded to function as it intends without "messy" outcomes like multiple "last Activations" of a Crew in a single turn.

I had also considered implications with the more common Mood Swings Condition handed out by Pandora herself.  Although thinking about it more, Mood Swings doesn't prohibit other models from activating in the same manner as Nobody Likes Me, so even though you're being "forced" to Activate a specific model with Mood Swings, I guess it isn't the "only model available", it's simply a forced choice.

Even still, it does alter the function from current.  But it would remove questions like this from existing, and is generally easier to swallow as a functional rational of how multiple models can be "last" to Activate in a given turn.  Although to be fair, the Depression Upgrade is rare 1 and that means the Nobody Likes Me Condition is far less common, and I don't really think it would imbalance things to any sort of absurdity.  But I admit that both wordings have unintended implications that will result from various game states.  I just think this suggestion is cleaner for rules question purpose than the "more than one Last Activation" conundrum which exist if you apply common English to the rules.  Not that either way is better.  I think the intention and effect are clear enough in the original text, I just strongly dislike how the odd-ball cases feel with that wording (Like DM's unboxing Models or the Tara-bomb style back-to-back last Activations).

But thanks for reminding me about Depression, it's certainly what I couldn't quite remember. 

[Math Mathonwy]

I agree that it wouldn't really break anything but Sours changed with your suggestion would make for a potentially nasty combo with Depression. OTOH it isn't like Candy is especially bonkers (well, outside Hardcore) so probably wouldn't really be much of a problem.

I do agree that your wording would be less prone to weirdness and generally clearer.