Whirlwind vs malevolence and bete

[Myk]

 

Hi all,

 

Quick question about timing. If viks got their trigger to whirlwind, kill/damage a model which makes me summons bette or Ikiro, can viks whirlwind the summoned model. We disagree with the player I play with. Thanks

 

Sorry if the answer was somewhere but the search bar didn't find it

Edited October 2, 2015 by Myk

[DocSchlock]

It's clear from the Lightning Jump FAQ that Malevolence is not the same timing as 'After Damaging' on Whirlwind, which makes sense because the rulebook doesn't tell us it is.

There's a common thought on the forums that 'after <insert anything>' somehow means after step 5. No idea how that got started - not faulting anyone for it, the timing system can be confusing. The only definition of 'After X' occurring after Step 5 in the rulebook is in regards to Triggers, and that's only for 'resolving / failing / succeeding / damaging'.

A piece of support from Safe in My Bed FAQ (Note, this is for triggers, but can help illustrate the timing intention):

Safe In My Bed does not use any of the keywords which have a specific timing in the book, so it must be applied when it says, which is
“after an Attack Action succeeds against this model"

To answer your question, Malevolence would occur after your target suffers damage, period - so during Step 5. So yes, you can Whirlwind against a model summoned by Malevolence since after resolving the attack against that target, you can target the newly placed model with the Whirlwind. You can even target a model summoned by Malevolence from damage from a Whirlwind Attack with a Whirlwind Attack.

Edited October 2, 2015 by DocSchlock

[Myyrä]

Bete doesn't get unburied until before a model leaves play. Models don't leave play until after the action is resolved, so I believe in the case of Bete, she won't get placed until after Whirlwhind is over but before the model that died is removed.

Bete is unburied when a model is killed. Not when it is removed from play.

[solkan]

I think it would be nice to get a confirmation from Wyrd or a consensus here.  

 

General Timing:

Whenever any ability happens at the same time as any Triggers, the Triggers are resolved first. 

So for Ikyro it's clear, she can't be targeted. 

But for Bête, I just don't know what is the timing there.

FAQ answers 14 and 15:

14) Q: If a model with the Eat Your Fill Ability kills a model with the Explosive Demise Ability, which Ability occurs first? Does the Attacker heal from Eat Your Fill first, or does the Defender deal damage with the Explosive Demise Ability first?

A: The Defender would deal damage with the Explosive Demise Ability and then the Attacker would heal due to Eat Your Fill. Explosive Demies happens “when” the model is killed and Eat Your Fill happens “after” the model is killed.

15) Q: If a model has an “After Damaging” Trigger which allows it to push/move and it kills a model with Explosive Demise, can it use its Trigger to push/move away from the model it killed before taking damage from Explosive Demise?

A: No. Explosive Demise happens when the model is killed, which would be during Step 5 of the duel process (Determine Success, Core Rulebook pg. 33) and After Damaging Triggers occur after Step 5 (Core Rulebook pg. 32).

Models are damaged and killed during Step 5.

Killed models may not be removed until later because of all of the triggers which specify "after .... but before removing ...".  But the killing still happens during step five.

 

[daniello_s]

I second to the question as I'm highly interested in solving this problem.

[solkan]

Whirlwind is an after damaging trigger.

Malevolence on the Lost Love model is an Ability with timing "after ____ suffers damage from an enemy action"

If Malevolence said "When ____ suffers damage from an enemy action", there would be cause to resolve it during Step 5, instead of after step five.  For example, Black Blood specifies "... when this model suffers damage" for its timing, so Black Blood resolves during Step 5.

So, as far as I can tell, both Whirlwind and Malevolence specify the same timing.  As a result, the Whirlwind trigger is resolved first, and then Malevolence resolves, as specified in the General Timing callout on page 46 of the Core Rulebook.

[DocSchlock]

From the FAQ - emphasis mine:
 Q: Wong’s Lightning Jump Attack can cause damage multiple times, first with the initial damage
to the target, then with blasts, and finally with the pulse. How is the timing on this Action handled
in regards to Abilities which react to damage, for example Black Blood and Malevolence? Can those
Abilities be used multiple times in response to a single Attack?
A: Each portion of Lightning Jump which deals damage must be resolved separately. First the actual damage track is
resolved, which involves Blast Markers (remember that in the case that the order in which resolving damage from
Blasts matters, the Attacker decides the order in which models suffer damage, Core Rulebook pg. 50). Once that is
complete, resolve the Pulse portion of Lightning Jump. Models with Abilities such as Black Blood or Malevolence
may resolve them multiple times if the relevant models suffer damage multiple times, and they must be resolved in
the order the damage is suffered.

Malevolence is not using a defined game rule timing, so it must occur at the earliest possible opportunity. "After" has nothing to do with Step 5 or beyond by itself - the rulebook does not tell us that at all. Instead, it defines how specific timings interact with the Steps. How can you resolve Malevolence multiple times on a single model if it triggers once after Step 5 completes? If someone argues Malevolence stacks multiple times past Step 5, that makes no sense when you read the last sentence - why would they be resolved in order of the damage suffered if that all occurs at the same timing?

For Malevolence, after the damage is suffered, you perform Malevolence immediately. If there would be a time were Malevolence and Black Blood would interact, Black Blood would go first since 'when' effects go before 'after' effects (FAQ), then Malevolence would occur.

Edited October 2, 2015 by DocSchlock

[Myk]

2 Answers 2 different views. Would Wyrd make a FAQ about this ?

[Vorschlag]

Docs answer was how I understood this as well.

Whirlwind happens after damage is resolved.

When damage is resolved it may or may summon bete or Ikiryo, ressers choice but if they do choose to place them they are open to the whirl wind trigger.

My biggest concern was dialogue box onon page 46 where it states triggers happen before abilities, but it seems as though bete and Ikiryo are summoned almost as interrupts to the timing.

[santaclaws01]

Docs answer was how I understood this as well.

Whirlwind happens after damage is resolved.

When damage is resolved it may or may summon bete or Ikiryo, ressers choice but if they do choose to place them they are open to the whirl wind trigger.

My biggest concern was dialogue box onon page 46 where it states triggers happen before abilities, but it seems as though bete and Ikiryo are summoned almost as interrupts to the timing.

Bete doesn't get unburied until before a model leaves play. Models don't leave play until after the action is resolved, so I believe in the case of Bete, she won't get placed until after Whirlwhind is over but before the model that died is removed.

Edited October 3, 2015 by santaclaws01

[Vorschlag]

The problem is the model dies when damage is resolved, and is immediately removed during the damaging step according to pg46.

As the trigger is after damaging this would suggest the model is removed before the trigger happens.

[Myk]

I think it would be nice to get a confirmation from Wyrd or a consensus here.  

 

General Timing:

Whenever any ability happens at the same time as any Triggers, the Triggers are resolved first. 

So for Ikyro it's clear, she can't be targeted. 

But for Bête, I just don't know what is the timing there.

Edited October 3, 2015 by Myk

[daniello_s]

Consensus is over-rated Myk

[santaclaws01]

Bete doesn't get unburied until before a model leaves play. Models don't leave play until after the action is resolved, so I believe in the case of Bete, she won't get placed until after Whirlwhind is over but before the model that died is removed.

Bete is unburied when a model is killed. Not when it is removed from play.

Drawn to Death: ... When a Living or Undead model is killed, this model may unbury in base contact with the killed model before removing it from play.

The only timing given is before removing it from play. It doesn't state that Bete is unburied when the model is killed, just that a model being killed is what prompts the ability to go off.

[Myyrä]

Drawn to Death: ... When a Living or Undead model is killed, this model may unbury in base contact with the killed model before removing it from play.

The only timing given is before removing it from play. It doesn't state that Bete is unburied when the model is killed, just that a model being killed is what prompts the ability to go off.

Actually it does quite literally say that. "When a Living or Undead model is killed..."