McCabe wirh promises

[Carcosa]

As an offshoot to a separate conversation, I stated I believe that McCabe was better as 10T than as guild, and Math said that McCabe plus promises with guild henchmen was awesome. (probably Enforcers as well). Obviously I am missing something here so I would like to ask, what say the forum about this? what kind of "generic list" would people take for McCabe and promises in guild?

I'm reading for some learnin............ 

[Myyrä]

I'm guessing if you want awesome Promises action you take McCabe with Saber, Armor/Badge and Elixir and include Sidir with Promises, Francisco and Pale Rider to your list. That leaves you with around 10ss to spend on scheme runners or Austringers or whatever the current strategy might need. List like this would only be decent in a pretty killy scenario.

[Carcosa]

I'm guessing if you want awesome Promises action you take McCabe with Saber, Armor/Badge and Elixir and include Sidir with Promises, Francisco and Pale Rider to your list. That leaves you with around 10ss to spend on scheme runners or Austringers or whatever the current strategy might need. List like this would only be decent in a pretty killy scenario.

I'm not sure what the intention was Myyra, I'm just trying to see what I might be missing here.

[Myyrä]

I have tried henchman heavy McCabe but I was no all that impressed. I tend to play him with more minion heavy lists both as TT and Guild. Can't really say that one would be significantly better than the other.

[Ludvig]

As an offshoot to a separate conversation, I stated I believe that McCabe was better as 10T than as guild, and Math said that McCabe plus promises with guild henchmen was awesome. (probably Enforcers as well). Obviously I am missing something here so I would like to ask, what say the forum about this? what kind of "generic list" would people take for McCabe and promises in guild?

I'm reading for some learnin............ 

Both me and Math reacted to your statement since it looked like you were saying he wasn't that good in Guild. Your exact words were "McCabe being simply -better- in 10T" which implies not that he is super in both factions but you personally prefer TT. The above emphasis and phrasing makes it sound like you have tried everything and have empirical evidence that he is always better in any matchup in TT. I mentioned the pain train in guild which I've enjoyed playing when the scheme pool is kill-heavy and the strat doesn't mind you bunching up. I'm not at all saying he is better or worse in any faction, I think he is simply super strong in both and would have a hard time saying he is "simply - better -" in one of them. This also depends heavily on the board and who you are facing as usual in this game.

The pain train has looked little diffrent for me at times but you basically take McCabe with promises, badge of speed and the saber. Use a couple of heavy hitters like Francisco, Ryle, Judge, Peacekeeper etc. and sprinkle in some minions or another semi-hard model. Nice minions are wardens or death marshals and then Luna with a canine buddy or two if you have something that needs doing scheme-wise. I have also used Papa Loco which makes things beatiful! I use him to give "hold this" to the model with the saber or one of the big guys. A warden can swing the saber with 3/5/6 dmg and  to damage flips, add reactivate if you need to. You can also use the  to damage and saber on one of the bigger guys with flurry if you need to. If you are ballsy and don't bury Loco he can give his buff to the same two targets you throw the saber around to and the saber has a big jump between weak and moderate so it benefits a lot from that. 

A lot of the crew doesn't need to bother with the saber at all since they have stellar damage by themselves so they just stick around for the plus flips and get pushed into flurry range. Francisco can really make McCabe into a roadblock so that he can tie up enemy models and prevent them from doing their thing. With Df 9 Wp 8, even most masters will struggle to hit (don't forget to make him defensive with Luna). Francisco can be squishy but can also really lock stuff down with his  to melee if the enemy is heavily invested in that.

Playing him exclusively as Guild and not having any TT players with a lot of experience nearby I'm sure I haven't seen an optimal TT build and I'm positive he can do a lot of nasty things in TT too. I'm just not sure he is so bad in Guild that he is an argument for the Guild being the worst faction in the game as you made him out to be.

Edit: Forgot about companioning, it can sometimes tip you over the edge if an enemy has a model that can heal and needs to be dealt with in one activation. A chain of Ryle, McCabe or Peacekeeper followed by Francisco can often kill stuff your opponent were hoping to keep alive before they get to activate and mitigate it. TT can use the hounds but I'm not sure they have many models with super high min dmg like the Peacekeeper (5 if you cheat a ram).

 

Edited September 6, 2015 by Ludvig

[Carcosa]

 

Both me and Math reacted to your statement since it looked like you were saying he wasn't that good in Guild. Your exact words were "McCabe being simply -better- in 10T" which implies not that he is super in both factions but you personally prefer TT.

 No, it implies that McCabe is simply -better- in 10T, it in no way says that he is bad in the guild. What you choose to read into that is beyond my control.

 

The above emphasis and phrasing makes it sound like you have tried everything and have empirical evidence that he is always better in any matchup in TT. I mentioned the pain train in guild which I've enjoyed playing when the scheme pool is kill-heavy and the strat doesn't mind you bunching up. I'm not at all saying he is better or worse in any faction, I think he is simply super strong in both and would have a hard time saying he is "simply - better -" in one of them. This also depends heavily on the board and who you are facing as usual in this game.

Explained already.

 

The pain train has looked little diffrent for me at times but you basically take McCabe with promises, badge of speed and the saber. Use a couple of heavy hitters like Francisco, Ryle, Judge, Peacekeeper etc. and sprinkle in some minions or another semi-hard model. Nice minions are wardens or death marshals and then Luna with a canine buddy or two if you have something that needs doing scheme-wise. I have also used Papa Loco which makes things beatiful! I use him to give "hold this" to the model with the saber or one of the big guys. A warden can swing the saber with 3/5/6 dmg and  to damage flips, add reactivate if you need to. You can also use the  to damage and saber on one of the bigger guys with flurry if you need to. If you are ballsy and don't bury Loco he can give his buff to the same two targets you throw the saber around to and the saber has a big jump between weak and moderate so it benefits a lot from that. 

Wardens, Ryle, peacekeepers, CONSTRUCTS......... All of these work well with Hoffman, arguably better than any other Guild leader with constructs, and ALSO the one leader I did not say a word about in a negative way. I'm sorry but I have seen more VP's scored by a Hoffman version of your list than a McCabe version, hence, -better-. Remember, I said, and you quoted, he is better in 10T, not he is incapable, or bad as Guild, that conclusion you came to all on your own.

A lot of the crew doesn't need to bother with the saber at all since they have stellar damage by themselves so they just stick around for the plus flips and get pushed into flurry range. Francisco can really make McCabe into a roadblock so that he can tie up enemy models and prevent them from doing their thing. With Df 9 Wp 8, even most masters will struggle to hit (don't forget to make him defensive with Luna). Francisco can be squishy but can also really lock stuff down with his  to melee if the enemy is heavily invested in that.

So the argument is "but Fransisco"??

 

Playing him exclusively as Guild and not having any TT players with a lot of experience nearby I'm sure I haven't seen an optimal TT build and I'm positive he can do a lot of nasty things in TT too. I'm just not sure he is so bad in Guild that he is an argument for the Guild being the worst faction in the game as you made him out to be.

I said that the guild was the test bed for other abilities, and other crews and factions have -better versions- of those abilities, barring a few specific cases. I -personally- see the guild as the most balanced of the factions, and in case anyone missed it, my favourite faction. I see them and probably the neverborn as the baseline by which I judge other abilities. I never said that he, or the guild were "bad", I said other crews do things "better".

Edit: Forgot about companioning, it can sometimes tip you over the edge if an enemy has a model that can heal and needs to be dealt with in one activation. A chain of Ryle, McCabe or Peacekeeper followed by Francisco can often kill stuff your opponent were hoping to keep alive before they get to activate and mitigate it. TT can use the hounds but I'm not sure they have many models with super high min dmg like the Peacekeeper (5 if you cheat a ram).

 

Companion certainly is a ability that pushes things in in favour of guild, if you have companion.

[Carcosa]

Lets be clear here, the topic is -promises- as an upgrade being better with guild or 10T, not what I think of the guild -or- 10T.

[Dirial]

Lets be clear here, the topic is -promises- as an upgrade being better with guild or 10T, not what I think of the guild -or- 10T.

So, how do you come to the hypothesis that Promises is better in Guild or 10T? I'm also still interested how you come to the conclusion that McCabe is "simply" better in 10T.

[Carcosa]

Lets be clear here, the topic is -promises- as an upgrade being better with guild or 10T, not what I think of the guild -or- 10T.

So, how do you come to the hypothesis that Promises is better in Guild or 10T? I'm also still interested how you come to the conclusion that McCabe is "simply" better in 10T.

Ok, I started this thread for you guys to prove your point, but fair play.

The best -models- to benefit from Promises in the guild are generally constructs, which makes you look at Hoffman and sorry, Hoffman is strictly better with his tricks over McCabe.

Promises gives bonuses to Melee and WP duels to anyone who has an upgrade, and melee simply isn't a big strong point of the guild. YES, some models do have good melee, and could benefit from it, but again they are either constructs, or expensive. The WP option is interesting, as it makes the notion of Death Marshals with a guild lawyer gives them  flips on keeping people in the box within the bubble.

Compare this to the swathe of 10T models that would benefit from a  on melee.........

Samurai with free upgrades, Illuminated in a pack that would just love Armour 2, Snipers who can shoot the crap out of people and stay in the bubble, and then still fight with  to attack, Izamu and Toshiro, sensei Yu and his extra tricks.........

 

I'm sorry, but the 10T list is just far more flexible in what it can gain from promises without looking to another master who can do it better. Feel free to disagree, but I ask one thing, answer why you think he is better in guild with promises than in 10T, which is my point.

 

[Ludvig]

Lets be clear here, the topic is -promises- as an upgrade being better with guild or 10T, not what I think of the guild -or- 10T.

I must have misunderstood your question. I did mention several models I think are very good when buffed by McCabe and promises and did something close to a straight up list as well as reasoning why I hold that opinion. You didn't specify I wasn't allowed to list constructs in that list and you didn't say I needed to argue against Hoffman using the same constructs. I thought you wanted to hear which lists made me think McCabe was good in Guild?

What McCabe brings that Hoffman doesn't: You aren't auto-losing if the enemy brings a bunch of metal gamin or incorporeal models. Hoffman has nothing in his list that can put a dent in incorporeal models and metal gamin have a ca 8 that does 2dmg ignoring armour to constructs at 18" if I remember correctly. In fact the guild faction as a whole has almost nothing to apply to incorporeal stuff or to get around htk (and especially those god-awful metal gamin who are harder to take down than Samael who costs 9ss). When you are facing Nicodem summoning in 2-5 hanged in a game, Ignoring Incorporeal and getting positives to Wp isn't something to sniff at. Those big constructs with a lot of wounds and being able to heal also loses a lot of value.

The reason I play McCabe is not so much  from promises but the likely possibility of facing Hard to Kill, Incorporeal, Hard to Wound and the fact that he gives mobility to otherwise slow models.

 

Quoted from the other thread: 2 players starter, any use for me?

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Shackles of the guild??

You have got to be kidding me, right? The shackles of sub-par, the shackles of other crews doing the same thing better.......

Don't get me wrong, guild has it's great stuff (Hoffman stuff), and even some of it is unique to the guild, but as for the rest...........

BAHAHAHAAAAAAA!!!!

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(You then posted this with a direct quote to Dirial asking if you could bring any hard evidence of the guild being subpar)

Lucius command being restricted to minions, non Austringer minions.

Lucius Commanding presence (?) failure side effect being -paralyze-

Sonnia with less skills than Kearis

Lady J with less control than Lillith

The latigo posse being outgunned, and out AP'ed by gremlins.

McCabe being simply -better- in 10T

Lucius being simply -better- as NB

Doctor Doug being simply -better- in Resser than Guild.

 

Guild has some awesome models, (oh hey, most work with Hoffman, who I have said nothing about......) and they are my most bought faction and favourite faction, but to consider a lot of their stuff more than "alpha testing" for other factions special rules??

Come on man!

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Here you are listing him as one of the reasons guild is the worst faction in the game, not as a strong point of guild. I'm not saying he is better in Guild than in TT but he does bring a lot to Guild. I also said that I have far too little experience to say anything about where he is best. I'm sorry if I interpreted you using caps lock and laughing at the entire faction (except Hoffman) and straight out calling it subpar as you thinking the faction is subpar. 

Hoffman being good doesn't make McCabe or promises worse in any way, they are both good options with a slightly different edge against certain stuff, I don't see what Hoffman brings to this conversation.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Ludvig

[Myyrä]

The best -models- to benefit from Promises in the guild are generally constructs, which makes you look at Hoffman and sorry, Hoffman is strictly better with his tricks over McCabe.

There's like two constructs that really benefit from Promises and even they don't normally take any upgrades. There is 4 living henchmen that tend to take upgrades and have min damage 3 if you count critical strike. How is Promises only good with constructs? How many 10T models have min damage 3 or better?

Promises gives bonuses to Melee and WP duels to anyone who has an upgrade, and melee simply isn't a big strong point of the guild. YES, some models do have good melee, and could benefit from it, but again they are either constructs, or expensive. The WP option is interesting, as it makes the notion of Death Marshals with a guild lawyer gives them  flips on keeping people in the box within the bubble.

You don't need to have 20 good melee models in a faction when you can only bring about 6-12 in a single crew. Guild has enough good melee models even though all our melee lists tend to look kinda similar. (Also, Lawyer doesn't give to Wp duels.)

Compare this to the swathe of 10T models that would benefit from a  on melee.........

Samurai with free upgrades, Illuminated in a pack that would just love Armour 2, Snipers who can shoot the crap out of people and stay in the bubble, and then still fight with  to attack, Izamu and Toshiro, sensei Yu and his extra tricks.........

Samurai's Ml attack is hardly impressive for 8ss model. Illuminated aren't at all impressive unless target has Brilliance, and that is somewhat difficult to arrange as 10T unless you are playing Lynch. Snipers are good, but it has relatively little to do with their Ml attack and they really don't benefit that greatly from Promises because the second is a lot less useful than the first one. Izamu actually has a good Ml attack and benefits a lot from Promises, but it's not like he's vastly superior to Guild Ml beaters. He's pretty much on par with Franc and Peacekeeper. Toshiro already has one like Snipers. He's about as great a melee fighter as Captain Dashel, which really isn't that grand a feat. Sensei Yu can't Ml fight himself out of a wet paper bag and doesn't even know how to charge. He's pretty much the last model I would think about when listing models that benefit from Promises.

Somehow you managed to forget the three non-master 10T models that benefit from the Promises aura most after Izamu. They would be Kang, Mr. Graves and Lone Samurai. Apart from Kang, they don't really have anything that Guild doesn't have access to as well, and Kang's greatness is hardly reliant on Promises.

 

I'm sorry, but the 10T list is just far more flexible in what it can gain from promises without looking to another master who can do it better. Feel free to disagree, but I ask one thing, answer why you think he is better in guild with promises than in 10T, which is my point.

 

I personally think Promises is almost never good enough to take on McCabe himself, whether you are playing Guild or 10T. His personal upgrades are way too good. If I really want Promises, I bring Sidir (or maybe Queek now that Shifting Loyalties is out.) to Ml attacks are so rare that most of the time the benefits from Pormises aura can be gained by cheating one or two cards from your hand per turn. It only really adds up when you have a significant number of good Ml beaters benefiting from it, which mostly happens in a turf war type of scenario (Why would you bring McCabe to turf war? If you want Promises, bring Sidir (or Queek) and you can also bring a better Ml Master).

[theJudge]

Promises as an upgrade is at the core of my fail safe Reckoning List of Lady J, The Judge, Francisco and Sidir (with Promises) and a couple of scheme runners.

Lady J, Franc and the Judge all have a suitable upgrade.  The Judge taxis Sidir around in early turns and the crew waits for the opposition to strike ad then counter punches with  crap loads of +ve flips 

[LunarSol]

Honestly, the things that make McCabe great are available to him in either faction.  If anything, I give him the Guild nod because he can take more of the things that make him great in Guild (Hounds and Austringers) where he has to cut a couple from his 10T list.  The rest of the list is details and which models you want to make shine.  In this regard I think he's pretty even.  Peacekeeper or Pale Rider vs Izamu and Lone Samurai.  

I did used to feel he was better in 10T, but that's mostly because I was comparing all the models that make him good.  Once I stopped focusing on good and narrowed down to the models that made him great, I found he was pretty even between the two factions.

[Ludvig]

Honestly, the things that make McCabe great are available to him in either faction.  If anything, I give him the Guild nod because he can take more of the things that make him great in Guild (Hounds and Austringers) where he has to cut a couple from his 10T list.  The rest of the list is details and which models you want to make shine.  In this regard I think he's pretty even.  Peacekeeper or Pale Rider vs Izamu and Lone Samurai.  

I did used to feel he was better in 10T, but that's mostly because I was comparing all the models that make him good.  Once I stopped focusing on good and narrowed down to the models that made him great, I found he was pretty even between the two factions.

Pretty sure he can infiltrate guardsmen so he has hounds and austringers in TT...

[LunarSol]

Honestly, the things that make McCabe great are available to him in either faction.  If anything, I give him the Guild nod because he can take more of the things that make him great in Guild (Hounds and Austringers) where he has to cut a couple from his 10T list.  The rest of the list is details and which models you want to make shine.  In this regard I think he's pretty even.  Peacekeeper or Pale Rider vs Izamu and Lone Samurai.  

I did used to feel he was better in 10T, but that's mostly because I was comparing all the models that make him good.  Once I stopped focusing on good and narrowed down to the models that made him great, I found he was pretty even between the two factions.

Pretty sure he can infiltrate guardsmen so he has hounds and austringers in TT...

Right.  What I was trying to say is he can take more of them in Guild, as in, he's limited to 4 Guardsman in TT, but he can take all 6 in Guild.

[tmod]

Lets be clear here, the topic is -promises- as an upgrade being better with guild or 10T, not what I think of the guild -or- 10T.

So, how do you come to the hypothesis that Promises is better in Guild or 10T? I'm also still interested how you come to the conclusion that McCabe is "simply" better in 10T.

Ok, I started this thread for you guys to prove your point, but fair play.

The best -models- to benefit from Promises in the guild are generally constructs, which makes you look at Hoffman and sorry, Hoffman is strictly better with his tricks over McCabe.

Promises gives bonuses to Melee and WP duels to anyone who has an upgrade, and melee simply isn't a big strong point of the guild. YES, some models do have good melee, and could benefit from it, but again they are either constructs, or expensive. The WP option is interesting, as it makes the notion of Death Marshals with a guild lawyer gives them  flips on keeping people in the box within the bubble.

Compare this to the swathe of 10T models that would benefit from a  on melee.........

Samurai with free upgrades, Illuminated in a pack that would just love Armour 2, Snipers who can shoot the crap out of people and stay in the bubble, and then still fight with  to attack, Izamu and Toshiro, sensei Yu and his extra tricks.........

 

I'm sorry, but the 10T list is just far more flexible in what it can gain from promises without looking to another master who can do it better. Feel free to disagree, but I ask one thing, answer why you think he is better in guild with promises than in 10T, which is my point.

 

So, Guild McCabe is worse than TT McCabe because other masters in guild are better with some of the models Guild McCabe would use? That's like saying TT McCabe is horrible with Illuminated because they are even better with Lynch... Sorry, this argument doesn't make any sense at all, and you could probably use this to "prove" that every master in every faction is useless because at least a few of the models they would like to use are even better with a different master.

That's not proof Guild is subpar, this is proof the game is well balanced!