Buried models and scoring Schemes (etc)

[Mach_5]

This question came up in A Wyrd Place facebook group and I wanted to post it here to ensure it gets reviewed by the powers-that-be. 

 

 

Can a player score a VP for the Cursed Object or Distract schemes if the models with the requisite condition is Buried? 

 

 

The only mention I can find in the rules of how rules interact with models that aren't "in-play" are in the Bury rules. Among other things it says "...These models do not count as "in play" for the purposes of other rules that reference whether or not a model is in play." (emphasis mine). So by my understanding for the purposes of rules which do *not* reference whether or not a model is in-play, buried models *do* count as in-play. Not that it matters to said rules anyway (they don't reference it one way or another).

Based on this, I would assume that you can score either scheme even if the model with the requisite scheme is buried.  

 

 

However, someone linked a comment by Justin here in the rules forum that suggests a different interpretation http://wyrd-games.net/community/topic/101932-tara-bomb-doesnt-work/?p=739405.  It could be argued based on this comment that all rules by default reference models in play, and if so then perhaps these schemes cannot score if the model in question is buried.  

 

 

Personally I'm happy to go on playing it the way it reads to me, or however my opponent thinks it should work (doesn't matter to me either way really), but I think this one is deserving of an FAQ, since it seems to me based on Justin's comment that the intent could be different from the rule as written.

[Kadeton]

On the other other hand, Justin's comment was about printed Abilities and Actions, not Schemes.

 

Conditions still resolve on Buried models, so I think it's reasonable that Schemes which rely on resolving Conditions would account for Buried models as well.

[Mach_5]

Conditions still resolve on buried models, but the Distracted and Cursed Object conditions don't actually do anything that resolve at the end of the turn.  It's the rule for scoring on those schemes that happens at the end of turn, and requires one or more models to have said condition.  If every rule by default references in-play models, then you can't score on these buried models.  But then why is it necessary to spell out that buried models are never in LoS or Range of effects if the only effects that could ever affect them would have to specify they can target buried/not-in-play models?   

 

My head hurts.  I need a caesar. 

[Kadeton]

I have a sneaking suspicion that Justin's comment was designed mainly to prevent Tara's core gameplay from falling apart, rather than to establish a new core rules paradigm. Have a caesar for me as well.

[solkan]

I think there's a reasonable hypothesis:  The people who write game rules sometimes attempt to be helpful and spell out some of the logical conclusions of a rule to save the trouble of having to work them out from first principles all the time.  Unfortunately, this goes wrong when it becomes unclear which game rules are the result of first principles, and which game rules are first principles.

 

And

 

Unless a model's printed action or ability specifies that it accounts for models not in play, then it doesn't.

 

"In play" is implied in pretty much all rules text, and spelled out in a few just to make things absolutely clear.

sure reads like a first principle to me.  The disclaimer is that there are undoubtedly converse cases where "even if buried" is implied due to context.  If nothing else, just from the fact that you can unbury stuff.

[Myyrä]

That comment by Justin should be ignored for all purposes, except for the Tara reactivate. It stirred up a huge number of rules questions that weren't the least bit unclear before that comment.

[zFiend]

That comment by Justin should be ignored for all purposes, except for the Tara reactivate. It stirred up a huge number of rules questions that weren't the least bit unclear before that comment.

 

Yeah it made a nice little mess.

[jonahmaul]

Conditions still resolve on buried models, but the Distracted and Cursed Object conditions don't actually do anything that resolve at the end of the turn.

Cursed Object specifically states that it is a condition that has to be ended at the end of the turn to score a VP so I would as Kadeton suggests treat Cursed and Distract like any other condition and that when Buried models would count (in the same way that you can give a model Distract/Cursed and then remove it's ability to take Interact actions which means they can't get rid of it).

[Barnaberible]

So did this ever get resolved? I've always played it as they don't count becuase they aren't in play but it seems the consensus is the other way round.