Trying to teach my friend how to play without frustrating him: 10T vs Arcanists

[Lawgnome]

Howdy everyone!  I'm new here, but have been lurking for some time now.

 

I have a bit of a situation, and I'm hoping that some of the more experienced types here will be able to help me out.

 

My friend and I get together once every couple of weeks for breakfast and wargames.  Normally, we play warhammer (ogres and lizards for me, elves and skaven for him), but recently we decided to give Malifaux a try.

 

I love the game.  Absolutely love it.  I'm playing 10T, and currently am using Mei Feng and Jakob Lynch as my masters (with the usual additional models of metal gamin and beckoners).  I have poured over the main rule book, the forums, and the wiki to try to wrap my head around how everything plays.

 

My friend currently has the Rasputina and Ramos boxes, as well as all of the arcanists cards, so technically he can field any model the arcanists have (I have no problem with proxies, so he can take whatever he wants so far as I care).

 

 

Now we come to the problem: he's getting really frustrated with the game.  We've played against each other maybe 5 or 6 times.  These games have been at 40 or 50ss, played in the usual fashion (flip for strategy, flip for schemes, etc.)  And in every game, I've either crushed him, or he's gotten frustrated and given up after turn 2.  And every time (with the exception of the last game, (lynch vs. ramos), where I completely shut him down thanks to beckoner usage), I've felt that he's had a stronger position and crew composition, but one or two bad mistakes opened the door for me to utterly destroy hiim.  I've taken the time to make two sets of  scheme cards to try to ease the mental burden, but it seems like he's having a really tough time remembering all of the different interactions his models can take, figuring out how to get them to work together, and how to take a crew that takes advantage of the schemes and strategies to get VP.

 

For example, in our last game (50ss), the strategy was squatters rights, and the schemes revolved around scheme markers on the centerline.  I took Lynch, a beckoner, Huggy, 3 illuminated, and 2 rail workers.  He had Ramos, Joss, Howard, a toolbox, an electric creation, and a combination of the different spiders.  I was able to get into position, pull his guys into engagement range, and wipe out models one at a time, while still getting my squat markers taken.  He couldn't really do anything due to models being pulled into engagement range, which limited his ability to access my back line or activate any schemes.  Howard killed a single rail worker (but not before the rail worker blasted him for 7 damage), and that was about it, while Lynch was able to blast Howard and Joss to pieces using final debt.  He was so frustrated at the end of it that I'm not sure I'll be able to get more than 1 additional game out of him before he gives up entirely.

 

 

 

So the question is this:  What should I do for our next (and if it goes badly, potentially last) game to help teach him the rules, teach him the interactions (such as the ramos/ electric creation movement trick), and teach him how to play the game so that it's fun but not frustrating?

 

Should I limit the amount of soulstones so that there are fewer models to keep track of?

 

Should I set up the schemes and strategies ahead of time and give him a good list for those schemes?

 

Should I do a regular game, but give him a crew list and hints on every single action (essentially playing solitaire)?

 

Should I handicap myself so that it is easier for him to beat me down?  For example, take Mei Feng, but don't take Kang even though I am facing constructs, or take Lynch without any beckoners against a fully frozen heart crew to negate terrifying. (I'm worried about doing this one because I think it would just promote a battleline line of thought, rather than encouraging using the schemes and strategies to win)

 

 

I really want to keep Mailfaux as part of our gaming repertoire, but I'm worried that my friend will give up before really getting why I am enjoying it so much.

[Dirial]

That's a tough position. Players with short fuse and low frustration tolerance are difficult to keep in any new game. Giving up on turn 2 rarely is necessary, for example.

 

Howard being pulled apart like that seems like a bout of really bad luck. That shouldn't happen wit any regularity. Also, are you aware that Final Debt has been errata'd to once per turn?

 

I always advise people who think that one crew was significantly better than the other to trade crews for a game. Helps to learn the other's cards, get some perspective.

 

How good is your terrain? Are you using enough of it? 30-50% of the board should be covered in terrain, and a good chunk of it should a. block LoS and b. be scatter terrain.

[Lawgnome]

Actually, I was not aware of the Final Debt errata.  That is a really good change.  Where can I find a list of all of the errata?  I don't think I've seen that yet.

 

Howard getting pulled apart was due to the (0) ability on the rail worker.  The    on attack and damage really made a big difference.  Also, he had a really bad hand, made worse by mismanagement of his only 2 high cards early in the turn.

 

I don't think it is an issue of him thinking my crew is better.  I was winning pretty handily with Mei Feng, too.  Heck, I offered to let him try with Lynch, but his response was that he has no idea how to use my crew either.  I think it really is more of an issue of not understanding his own cards and their interactions.  For example, in the last game, he had a large arachnid that he was pushing up to the centerline.  He thought that the arachnids ability to remove scheme markers would also remove the squat markers.  

 

Our terrain is fine.  I learned about the 30-50% terrain trick by our second game.  I think I've been setting up the game right (I printed out cheat sheets for the whole process), so it really is just a matter of getting frustrated with the game mechanics and not understanding how everything works together.

[Dirial]

Oh, Howard being killed is not unusual, him doing no damage until he dies is. That thing is murder on wheels... well, spider legs.

 

Does he like battle reports? There are some lengthy ones on youtube where he could get an impression of how some models work.

 

I can't really say too much besides getting more games, or reading up on the models to get better. Malifaux isn't a game where taking a list from the net and rolling some dice will get you wins.

[admiralvorkraft]

As someone who is very much like your friend I have trouble offering advice. No matter how well I play or how solid my position actually is I am certain I have lost by turn 3. Almost without exception. I simply shut down mentally and either quit or play out the last couple of turns completely disengaged from the game.

 

Now I have figured out some of the things that put me in that head space and some tricks for getting around it. Small rooms with no windows? Problem. My opponent is taking a long time to move and I have nothing to do but stare at the board and the million things that can go wrong? Problem. I've built my list to try out a specific interaction and it doesn't pan out for whatever reason? Problem.

 

Some solutions; play in a well lit and not claustrophobic area with people around, take breaks between turns, give myself something to do while my opponent is thinking, build boring lists that I know inside and out, that don't hinge on any big moves to get work done.

 

An example or the last point would be Sonnia, I can't run her with the Papa/Box trick because if she doesn't get her murder on then everything falls apart (and regardless of what you might see on the forums it's easy to scatter and hide from her in most strategies, if there's enough blocking terrain on the table). Instead I run her with the Judge to speed her up and play bodyguard, a Witchling Handler and a couple Stalkers, and flavor to taste for strat/schemes. She doesn't have turns where she nukes four models, but I'm also not building my strategy around having her do that.

 

EDIT: I also generally go over what my crew can do with my opponent before each game because so many models in Malifaux make you sit up and say "It can do WHAT?" the first time you run into them. The first time Lynch blew up two of my models in an activation without trying (or really attacking much) I was appalled. The next time I saw him I offered him a sacrifice and then Ironsides pulled him in and punched him to death which made me feel rather better about the whole ordeal.

[Rob Lo]

Dirial already said it, but my first thought was swapping crews. Beyond that, if it's really just what his guys can do that he needs to wrap his head around, and you're up to a mega-proxy.. mirror match his crew against him. Everything on the board is a model he uses. Seeing something used against you very often helps it 'click' as to what it can do, and what you should be doing with it. Plus he'll get to see how you handle the exact same crew under the same strat/schemes.

 

Oh, and tell him loads of people mix up the scheme markers and squat markers as being the same thing at first. I'm sure it's loads. Certainly more than just me and him.

[Dirial]

Oh forgot the link to the errata:

 

LINK

[Lawgnome]

Awesome.  Thanks for the help, everyone.  I might try using one of his sets (or even doing the mirror match).  That way he doesn't have to learn one of my crews, but still would get to see how the crew works when seeing someone else use it.  I think having both people using the same cards will really help cement how the cards interact with each other and how to use them to win.

 

Also, the errata was very useful.  It doesn't effect most of the stuff we use, but that change to final debt really makes a difference.  Being able to use that more than once is way too strong.

[Math Mathonwy]

Malifaux is a really unforgiving game, unfortunately. A more skilled player will win against a less skilled one a huge majority of the time even if the crews are really lop-sided. Malifaux really takes a lot - memorizing the models is crucial for success and it takes a lot of effort. Not everyone is cut out for this game or willing to put in the effort.

That said, you could try building a crew that's not about killing (as getting killed is frustrating). Low River Monks are an excellent start - take three of them. They aren't horrible, but tricky to use and non-threatening. Also, use Mei Feng rather than Jacob Lynch - Lynch is one of the most powerful "early" Masters in that he is extremely dominating when both players are new to the game (a bit like Viks, for example). Try to focus on non-killing Schemes if possible. Play as good as you can, but take several models that don't excel at killing but rather in other areas. Wastrels are also nice.

[Dirial]

Also, the errata was very useful.  It doesn't effect most of the stuff we use, but that change to final debt really makes a difference.  Being able to use that more than once is way too strong.

 

Debatable. It was one of the more uncalled for errata to my eyes. His gun is nearly as powerful regardless. But hey, what's done is done.

[Lawgnome]

Debatable. It was one of the more uncalled for errata to my eyes. His gun is nearly as powerful regardless. But hey, what's done is done.

 

The only reason I think it was called for is that it is consistent damage, rather than damage that is effected by accuracy.  I just have to beat their defense, rather than having to beat their defense then trying to get high enough accuracy to hopefully be able to get max damage.  I can just cheat out a high enough card to hit them, watch them take 5 damage, then hit them again for at least 4 damage (and I would consider that a bad turn.  I've easily hit for 7 with each activation).

 

Before we really learned about how accuracy worked, we thought the attack and damage flips were one and the same.  Really made Raspy fun to play against when she just has to cheat out a king once to hit me with a max damage attack.  I think Final Debt is like that (especially if you are smart about card use and get a few aces during your turn).  It has some variation, since it relies on the size of your hand, but I think it is very easy to deal a huge amount of damage to a model if you are allowed to use it more than once an activation.

[Dirial]

Not arguing. I think it made Lynch players focus too much on this one ability, so it's okay that it got restricted. It also made them realize that Lynch is equally deadly even without it.

 

But we're not here to discuss the errata, I gather.

[Lawgnome]

 

But we're not here to discuss the errata, I gather.

 

Nope, but I do think it is interesting

[Ferossa]

If you're teaching new players, don't treat it like a game. Treat it like a stress test for your models.

 

For some strategies and schemes, I like to point out where the opponent could hurt me, and complain loudly (in a friendly way) about them Ruining All My Plans if they move into a position to block me. This isn't you going easy on your opponent, this is you providing them with immediate feedback on their tactics. (I am a pretty effusive player and like a lot of dialogue on the tabletop, so this works for me.)

 

I focus less on accomplishing schemes than I do gathering aggregate data about my models and honing synergies. It gives me a game to play while I'm teaching, and since I'm not going for the throat, my opponent has a better chance of landing hits and accomplishing schemes, which leads to a better understanding of their models. If your opponent is frustrated, it may be because they don't understand their models enough and thus don't see the tactics they should be using.

 

I've had really negative play experiences when I've tried to learn at hobby stores, so I try to be the opposite of that when I teach people. IME an open dialogue is really important. If your opponent doesn't feel like they can ask you questions without you taking advantage of it, they're going to be cautious and resentful when they lose. You're not responsible for what's going on in your opponent's head, but you can make it known that as long as you're teaching them, you're a resource, not an opponent.

 

TL;DR: Treat yourself as the computer in a tutorial level for Malifaux.

[paradoxstorm]

My mentor was frustrated that I kept beating him in early games while I was still learning.  I pointed out to him that while he was playing his crew, WE were playing my crew---he was doing a variation on Ferossa's complaining loudly about how I was ruining all his fun--basically pointing out my best move at several points during the game.

 

Don't know if a story helps, but a couple of weeks back I was on my first adventure with Marcus and losing terribly at the end of turn 2: 4 - 0 with so many models gone and out of place I saw no chance of winning.

 

I made up my mind that I was not going to lose X - 0---I was going to score at least one point---and I was pretty sure that one point was the best I could hope for--that and denying my opponent as many VP as possible.

 

End of turn three didn't look so hot either, but I did have a plan for Murder Protege. 

 

Final score: 6 - 5 favoring my opponent.  Poor measurement, resulting in poor marker placement, cost me one VP or I would have tied the game.   Even so, I was pretty happy with my comeback.  

 

Help him focus on VP and learn that the game isn't over until it is over.  

[Carcosa]

A few suggestions.

 

1: Ferossa's attitude for teaching the game is probably the best one you could adopt, do not play to win, play to teach. I have done this myself for years in games far more complex than Malifaux, and it -really- helps in keeping peoples interest in a game high. In effect, they end up learning despite themselves (and that resistance can be strong for whatever reason in some people)

 

2: Take a good hard look at your own crew. You have said yourself that due to your desire to know more, you have checked the wiki's, posted, and got the advice of the usual suspects for your crews. You -know- how to build the Lynch honeypot crew, and it in of itself is a damn solid crew. Try -not- taking the beckoners, but take something else to test instead. Build a crew yourself that will hamstring yourself to an extent, but allow you to learn other 10T models as well. To use a MTG example, you are using a tier one deck vs a guy still learning the game, and to an extent it will just win at every turn over a hodgepodge of a deck, or even another tier one deck because they just don't know the interactions of how the cards work. Some of the onus is on you here to just not play highly tuned crews.

 

3: Give the guy a printout, or the cards for the schemes and strat for the next game a week in advance so he can really look at what each one requires, or alternatively, let him choose the ones he wants for the crew he has in mind for the next game. If he wants to try a "bubble" kind of crew, let him choose schemes that favour that kind of crew.

 

4: Build a crew with his models, and explain -why- you take each mini after you have determined schemes and strat, and if he likes your version, let him play it.

 

5: Malifaux is very much a game of resource management, be it AP's, Activations, or Soulstones. Within the game itself, you can't really help someone out with the first two, but what -may- be an option is to give your friend an unlimited soulstone pool. Let them burn them like crazy to cheat initiative, draw cards, damage reduction or whatever. After a game or 2 of that, give him a free full cache of 7 so he learns when and where to spend them, and then after 2 more games, make him pay for them as normal. Idea being he learns to manage the resource without the pressure of dealing with it right away.

 

None of this will help if he just does not like the game, and you have to accept that possibility, but some of these idea's may just help you out.  

[paradoxstorm]

 

 

2: Take a good hard look at your own crew. You have said yourself that due to your desire to know more, you have checked the wiki's, posted, and got the advice of the usual suspects for your crews. You -know- how to build the Lynch honeypot crew, and it in of itself is a damn solid crew. Try -not- taking the beckoners, but take something else to test instead. Build a crew yourself that will hamstring yourself to an extent, but allow you to learn other 10T models as well. To use a MTG example, you are using a tier one deck vs a guy still learning the game, and to an extent it will just win at every turn over a hodgepodge of a deck, or even another tier one deck because they just don't know the interactions of how the cards work. Some of the onus is on you here to just not play highly tuned crews.

 

I like #2 for a couple of reasons--not only does it power down your crew a bit giving your opponent a better chance but it also gives you the opportunity to learn more about the game.  Definitely a good idea.

[PerpetualBeginner1]

Prior to playing Malifaux I was a Fantasy player myself; the transition was not gentle and I still have night terrors from Nekima and the Hungering Darkness.

 

There were two big things that really helped this game 'click' for me:

 

First off, being told constantly to focus on the Strategies/Schemes. This was a massive hurdle for me and one I still struggle with a bit. Fantasy was (still is) all about killing your opponent and keeping your own models alive, that doesn't apply to Malifaux. Make sure you are reminding your friend that he needs to focus on the Strats/Schemes to win, killing your opponent's model should only facilitate this goal. One way to help with this is to pick "easy" strats/schemes for the crews that he has. For example, if your friend is dying a lot have a strat/scheme pool that involves frame for murder, that is an easy 3 points. You can also include stats/schemes that might be more difficult for your crew and pick those for your to achieve. This will help you to become a better player and allow for a closer game.

 

Second, is teaching your friend about resources management. Every turn he should have one major goal ready to achieve and most of his resources should go to achieving that goal. He should also have his secondary goals that need to be achieved but can wait a little bit. By teaching your friend to focus on one goal at time it can really up his game and not be so overwhelmed by what the different cards can do. A big part of his feelings of being overwhelmed is that he is not learning his crew well enough. I would suggest that he stick with one master and build on him/her until he gets the hang of it. It might take awhile (took be about 10 games to get my first win) but it will be worth it when it happens.

 

I hope these suggestions help. Good luck and happy gaming!

[Jewomie]

yep, going to pretty much echo some of the other folks around here. I've been teaching this game to folks for about 5 years now. pretty much since it hit the shelves of my LGS. and it has been rough at times. I've had a few players with the same issue your friend is having.

 

pretty much all the suggestions here I have tried (aside from the unlimited soulstone trick. that's a good idea though!)

 

Another thing I tend to do, at least since 2.0 rolled around, is I take upgrades out of the equation all together, and limit the pool to something small like 25 or 30. Sometimes depending on their experience I even go as low as 20 and only do a henchman game as they tend to be easier to handle for new players.

 

Then, I give one player protect territory and the other break through and no main strat. that way they only have one objective to keep in mind, and it is the opposite of their opponent. I've found this maximizes the time spent interacting with each other's models. And they know their opponent will try to do the opposite of them so it makes the idea of sabotaging their objectives very apparent as a viable strategy for their games.

 

When you play smaller games summoning masters tend to go up in power, so this way he has a little bit of a boon on his side right at the start. this is typically kind of bad, but since you have lynch who is awesome anyway, and Mei Feng who is a construct killer... .maybe him having a bit of a starting advantage is a good thing!

[Lawgnome]

Finally got a chance to play again using many of the ideas from this thread.

 

Complete success!

 

We did a combo of the low points, mirror match, and infinite soulstones ideas, as well as having the same schemes.

 

It was a 35 point game with Ramos, Joss, a brass arachnid, an electric creation, a steam arachnid swarm, and a performer.

 

The strategy was Recon, and we each took a line in the sand and outflank.

 

 

Thanks to Joss, there were more scrap counters than we could possibly use.  I wound up winning a close 7/6 victory, and he didn't get frustrated.  It taught him to play to the schemes and strategy, rather than for killing people, and he learned how best to use lure models.

 

Very successful, and very fun.  Best of all, that means I'll get to play again

[Lawgnome]

We got to play another game today. I am excited to report that I lost by a spectacular 3-10. I couldn't be happier.

We played a 40 ss game. I had Mei Feng, Kang, 2 rail workers, 2 metal gamin, and an illuminated.

He had Ramos, Joss, brass arachnid, large arachnid, an electric creation, and a performer.

The strategy was whichever one gives you points for having 2 guys around the center (the name escapes me), and I took bodyguard and a line in the sand. My friend took bodyguard and breakthrough.

The only thing we did that was different from a normal game was playing with open hands so that advice could be more easily given.

Turn one he pulled my illuminated into joss's charge range, leading to her death. My rail workers were dropping schemes everywhere, but my friend just kept destroying them with the performer and the large arachnid. He spent a large part of the game just getting spiders to gum up Mei. Didn't want to kill her, just distract her. It was a huge improvement. He was playing to his schemes, rather than just to kill stuff. By the end of the game I had 2 rail workers and a full health Mei, and he had roughly 14 activations. It was really impressive, and I am really happy to lose like this, because it means the learning game we played really sunk in.

[Carcosa]

Awesome!!

Glad to see you have outfauxed another player