Gen Con - Avatar Tournament

[Icemyn]

I really think Wyrd dropped the ball with regards to the Gen Con tournament this year. 

 

As in previous years the Avatar Tournament is a series of Qualifiers followed by a 3 round 8 person single elimination Finals. With the relative format being the same what is the problem? The Qualifiers. The Qualifiers are the problem. 

 

The Qualifiers:

1x Three Round 50ss Gaining Ground Tournament with top 4 qualifying.(8 hours)

2x Three/Four Round 20ss Henchman Hardcore Tournament with only the winner qualifying.(3/4 hours)

2x Two Round Enforcer Brawl with only the winner qualifying. (4/6 hours)

 

The Problems:

1) Representation

As many people in the past have noted Gen Con isn't actually a competition event it's a sales event first and foremost, it's where you get to see everything the gaming industry has to offer. If you do some simple math you will see that Malifaux tournament Qualifiers are on the schedule for 25 hours. Eight of those hours are spent playing the game the way it was designed to be played. The other Seventeen are spin off formats that are unbalanced/untested. If a random passerby walks by they have a 68% chance to see the game being played in a way that it was not intended. 

 

For instance, let's pretend you were interested in Malifaux at Gen Con and walked over to see 6 people around a table with a model each(Enforcer Brawl). The good news is the game is cheap to get into the bad news is you need 5 friends to play. Let's further pretend you ask some questions only to be told that this official tournament doesn't represent the actual game. I know I want to do a demo now.  

 

2) Competition

Malifaux is designed to be and is most balanced at 50ss Master led games. Fully half of the competitors in the Finals will having not qualified playing Malifaux proper. I am not saying that the other formats are not fun/interesting, but I will say that they are not balanced in any way. As an aside I fully believe qualifying for the Finals through Enforcer Brawl or Henchman Hardcore is much harder than through a gaining grounds tournament. This is due to the fact that these formats are much more luck based and have one qualifying spot. 

 

3) Descriptions

a) What in the hell is a 25ss Enforcer Brawl? It's certainly nothing I have ever heard of. I am assuming they just mean a standard Enforcer Brawl as outlined in the "Alternate M2E Formats" document.

Why is one Enforcer Brawl 4 hours while the other is 6? Why is one Henchman Hardcore 4 hours while the other is 3? Why aren't they consistent?

c) Why does the Finals say that it is fixed crew? That can't be right can it?

d) Why aren't the Enforcer Brawls more fleshed out? As in how are they being run? Let's say 32 people sign up what is the format? It's 2 rounds so does that mean 4 tables of 8 with the best 2 from each table qualifying for the second round table of 8? 

 

I just don't understand why it looks like zero forethought was put into Gen Con by Wyrd. I get that it's a more laid back event, but as I've said the lineup presented doesn't represent Malifaux or Wyrd as a whole. 

 

Suggestions:

While there is still time change the qualifiers. 

2x  Three Round 50ss Gaining Ground Tournament with top 3 qualifying.(8 hours)

1x Three/Four Round 20ss Henchman Hardcore Tournament with only the winner qualifying.(4 hours)

1x Two Round Enforcer Brawl with only the winner qualifying. (4 hours)

 

This keeps the odd formats as qualifying events, but doesn't put them front and center. 

 

I'd say this is just my 2 cents, but no one I've talked to has been happy with the event schedule at Gen Con. Normally I'd say I'm happy to volunteer to help Wyrd run some of the tournaments or Demo Malifaux or their other games, but as it stands I'm not sure I want to go at all.

[Victoria]

I for one applaud the number of tournaments and styles offered at gen con this year!  It will be fun for people who are currently into the game.

 

It seems to me you -have- heard of an enforcer brawl, I don't know what is confusing.

 

Hardcore tournaments are happening all over the country... and enforcer brawls... it seems to me that people will be observing Malifaux as it is often played.

 

Someone else is running the tournaments so don't worry about specifics, just sign up and have fun!

[PolishSausage]

I agree with Icy, when you try to show of your game to new buyers you don't run random hoge-poged events that have no tangible relation to the game itself. It is bad advertising and to some extent honey potting the game to look differently then it is in reality.

 

It is also alienating malifaux players who play the game by telling them that random events are just as important if not More important than the original game they have fallen in love with.

 

Imagine Warmachine spelldraft ( random spells for your warcaster) qualifying you for finals brackets, its a joke!

[SpectreEliteGaming]

I disagree with a lot of what you say, actually. However, I think your end suggestion of 2 gaining grounds and one of each others is (probably?) superior. Malifaux-proper should be the highlighted event.

Multi- format qualifying makes the event much more interesting in my mind.

Its like going to a Magic tourney and qualifying for either regular/draw/edh format - I think thats really awesome, actually.

Chances are pretty good that one of the top four in gaining grounds will take the single elim anyway - so I don't see a problem, really. From what I've seen, I think Wyrd/tourney organizers put more thought, not less - into this event. Also, I've been hearing lots of discussion about wanting a multi-format qualifierin podcasts/community - I think this is a "listening to what the people want" type situation.

Furthermore, at gen con you are probably not going to want to play Malifaux all weekend - there is so much to do. Multiple gaining grounds formats is a major time sink in a repetitive format. At least this way you can pick and choose what you want to do and invest whatever time in whatever format you want. Additionally, hyper competitiveness is always a small percentage of the total population of a gaming group. I think it just makes more sense to cater to the masses than it does to the top 4-8 players - who will probably suck it up and play anyway.

It may not work for you, but there are going to be a lot of people who are going to love the way this event pans out. I have a feeling it will end up working out much better IRL then it looks on paper. It will certainly be more fun and less repetitive then slugging out a full weekend of nothing but 50ss GG games.

[sharpobjects]

I for one applaud the number of tournaments and styles offered at gen con this year!  It will be fun for people who are currently into the game.

 

It seems to me you -have- heard of an enforcer brawl, I don't know what is confusing.

 

Hardcore tournaments are happening all over the country... and enforcer brawls... it seems to me that people will be observing Malifaux as it is often played.

 

Someone else is running the tournaments so don't worry about specifics, just sign up and have fun!

 

The Enforcer Brawl posted under the download section for alternate tournament formats is hiring one enforcer and attaching one legal upgrade to the model.

 

http://wyrd-games.net/community/files/download/170-alternate-m2e-tournament-formats/

 

It doesnt say anything about 25SS. Which leads us to believe that the 25SS Enforcer Brawl(s) at Gen Con must be something entirely different or the orginal format has been adjusted in some way. We are asking for an explanation.

 

 

I really think Wyrd dropped the ball with regards to the Gen Con tournament this year. 

 

As in previous years the Avatar Tournament is a series of Qualifiers followed by a 3 round 8 person single elimination Finals. With the relative format being the same what is the problem? The Qualifiers. The Qualifiers are the problem. 

 

The Qualifiers:

1x Three Round 50ss Gaining Ground Tournament with top 4 qualifying.(8 hours)

2x Three/Four Round 20ss Henchman Hardcore Tournament with only the winner qualifying.(3/4 hours)

2x Two Round Enforcer Brawl with only the winner qualifying. (4/6 hours)

 

The Problems:

1) Representation

As many people in the past have noted Gen Con isn't actually a competition event it's a sales event first and foremost, it's where you get to see everything the gaming industry has to offer. If you do some simple math you will see that Malifaux tournament Qualifiers are on the schedule for 25 hours. Eight of those hours are spent playing the game the way it was designed to be played. The other Seventeen are spin off formats that are unbalanced/untested. If a random passerby walks by they have a 68% chance to see the game being played in a way that it was not intended. 

 

For instance, let's pretend you were interested in Malifaux at Gen Con and walked over to see 6 people around a table with a model each(Enforcer Brawl). The good news is the game is cheap to get into the bad news is you need 5 friends to play. Let's further pretend you ask some questions only to be told that this official tournament doesn't represent the actual game. I know I want to do a demo now.  

 

2) Competition

Malifaux is designed to be and is most balanced at 50ss Master led games. Fully half of the competitors in the Finals will having not qualified playing Malifaux proper. I am not saying that the other formats are not fun/interesting, but I will say that they are not balanced in any way. As an aside I fully believe qualifying for the Finals through Enforcer Brawl or Henchman Hardcore is much harder than through a gaining grounds tournament. This is due to the fact that these formats are much more luck based and have one qualifying spot. 

 

3) Descriptions

a) What in the hell is a 25ss Enforcer Brawl? It's certainly nothing I have ever heard of. I am assuming they just mean a standard Enforcer Brawl as outlined in the "Alternate M2E Formats" document.

Why is one Enforcer Brawl 4 hours while the other is 6? Why is one Henchman Hardcore 4 hours while the other is 3? Why aren't they consistent?

c) Why does the Finals say that it is fixed crew? That can't be right can it?

d) Why aren't the Enforcer Brawls more fleshed out? As in how are they being run? Let's say 32 people sign up what is the format? It's 2 rounds so does that mean 4 tables of 8 with the best 2 from each table qualifying for the second round table of 8? 

 

I just don't understand why it looks like zero forethought was put into Gen Con by Wyrd. I get that it's a more laid back event, but as I've said the lineup presented doesn't represent Malifaux or Wyrd as a whole. 

 

Suggestions:

While there is still time change the qualifiers. 

2x  Three Round 50ss Gaining Ground Tournament with top 3 qualifying.(8 hours)

1x Three/Four Round 20ss Henchman Hardcore Tournament with only the winner qualifying.(4 hours)

1x Two Round Enforcer Brawl with only the winner qualifying. (4 hours)

 

This keeps the odd formats as qualifying events, but doesn't put them front and center. 

 

I'd say this is just my 2 cents, but no one I've talked to has been happy with the event schedule at Gen Con. Normally I'd say I'm happy to volunteer to help Wyrd run some of the tournaments or Demo Malifaux or their other games, but as it stands I'm not sure I want to go at all.

 

 

I like the fact that Wyrd is having the fun Henchmen Hardcore format and possibly the Enforcer Brawl format (although i don't know what a 25ss Enforcer Brawl is) at Gen Con this year. I think players are going to have a lot of fun playing in them. I recently ran a Henchmen Hardcore format for 16 players and an Enforcer Brawl format for 8 players a few weeks ago. 

 

http://wyrd-games.net/community/topic/107550-henchmen-hardcore-enforcer-brawl-games-plus-mt-prospect-il/

 

These formats have very little to do with the 50SS Master lead standard Malifaux Gaining Grounds tournament game. It is of my opinion that none of the winners of these formats should be allowed a spot in the Avatar on Sunday. Hand the winners of those events some nice prizes and call it a day. 

 

There should also be two 50SS standard tournaments on two seperate days, usually Friday morning and Saturday morning. In my opinon the top 4 from each of those two events play each other on Sunday. 

 

I also dont understand why it's posted that the Saturday qualifier is fixed faction and the Sunday Avatar is fixed list? That has never been done before. I do not agree with the fixed list but whatever the reason it is being used then use that same format for the Saturday qualifier. Why would you qualify in the top 4 on Saturday using fixed faction allowing you to tailor your list each round for the strategy and schemes and then on Sunday your not allowed to do that?

 

Sunday's tournament is a 50SS event. Those playing in that event should have qualified by playing in that format. 

 

You could take the top 2 people from each of the Hardcore Henchmen format games and let them play on Sunday to determine the #1 Hardcore Henchmen player. You can do the same for the Enforcer Brawl. 

 

These events having very few people can be run at the same time on Sunday. You need maybe 8 tables total to run the Avatar, Hardcore Henchmen top player and Enforcer Brawl top player. 

 

Let each format stand on its own on Sunday. 

[Justin]

It is my understanding that the Gen Con Enforcer Brawls will be standard Enforcer Brawls. I have passed along that correction along with a question about varying time lengths (although likely those were just the time slots we got). If I find out anything further I will put it here.

 

As for the concerns about allowing other events to feed into the Avatar finals, I understand that that is not how the game is normally played. However, running two, full 50ss qualifiers in the past always left one with very poor attendance, so it was not worth continuing and we are going to try drawing other finalists from other events. It encourages entry into those events and, if you win the finals after getting there through hardcore or an enforcer brawl, you must have some skill at 'traditional' Malifaux. In the end, we basically thought this would be more fun and interesting for players. Our Gen Con events are more geared around being enjoyable than about being an ultimate test of skill.

 

Now, this may not work out in which case we won't repeat it. But it also may be a blast. We'll see. Either way that's what is happening this year.

[Drool_bucket]

I wish I was going this year.

Last year I helped TO the two Gaining Grounds, only to leave the second day because the event was so small, three TOs plus a Justin weren't needed.

I love all the additional opportunities to showcase the game, Wyrd's stated commitment to superior terrain and am excited to hear how this new format works out.

[valhallan42nd]

I think it looks like fun. I'm not going this year, but this line up makes me wish I was.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

I'm all for more game formats to be hosted at Gencon. Diverisity is gunna bring more attention to the game. I applaud this. Be that as it is, people who attend the avatar are looking for a competitive game. We can argue all day about wether malifaux is a competitive game or not but at the end of the day who do you think attends the Avatar and tournaments like it? Competitive people. So when you have two qualifiers out of three which are not based on a fair and competitive game format you're messing things up. I was at Gencon last year and I didnt' see any issue with attendance from qualifier one to two. Both days seemed to have plenty of players, day two having only a few less. So I dont know where  this is coming from. But, if this is the only solution then the competitivness of the avatar is skewed. Henchman brawl and enforcer are really fun but have much more to do with luck and have less balance. So anyone could wind up winning. Then the avatar will be a game of who got the most favorable match up.

 

Other note, does any one know if the emissaries are going to be legal in the avatar?

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

Did i just realize that its fixed list? Yes. This is outrages. This whole game is structured to give you options! You get to pick your crew after everything and you choose that format for the tournament? Why would you take the game and completely do the opposite? Do you not realize how boring it is to play the same list for every round?

 

Seriously... wyrd come on what's with the tournaments? You design a great and well balanced game, one that I think is nearly perfect for competition and then you go and mess with the formula for no reason. 

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

AND! Hard Counters. You fix the lists and you're basically just saying whoever is luckiest with the match ups wins. You get a hard counter and that's pretty much it. Did you spend all that money on wyrd model? Well too bad, you can only use a few. I just...  dont get it

[PolishSausage]

Joe... stop spamming the forums with you creative feedback. Gencon is set in stone so learn to play one master/one list and deal with it. Period.

 

 

 

 

[Justin]

That's a typo. It's fixed Faction.

[valhallan42nd]

Typos, the bane of Tournament Organizers. 

I hates them, I do. 

[Joel]

I'll be there and I'll play whatever format I can that fits best with me seeing everything  - this will be my first, and probably only even GenCon and I want to make the most of it - playing in a Malifaux event there is a big part of that.

[SpectreEliteGaming]

I like Justin's post a lot, actually - Malifaux is still growing and this assortment of events will give good insight into seeing what people like to play. I'm pretty easy going though and honestly don't care what I'm playing as long as I'm playing and having fun.

Whatever the format or situation - I promise to try to skew, exploit, and manipulate it to the best of my ability - especially in unbalanced game formats, hope for favorable matchups, and see what happens. I expect anyone and everyone else to do the same. Then again, most people don't insist on wanting to pilot legacy goblins in multiplayer or field deuce hellcannons so I am pretty sure this is the part where I get flamed and zFiend laughs at me.

I thought that 25ss enforcer brawl was a typo for 25ss henchman led - I would have liked that a lot! No worry about time constraints with those!

[Victoria]

I was hoping for 25ss henchman lead too!

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

Not fixed list! Woot! Then I'm in!

Hey I care because I didn't spend all that time and money building the entire outcast faction to NOT get to play it at Gencon.

Justin you has my money, don't take my heart as well!

 

And Wilktor...Vilktor...Viktor....Polish Sausage... what are you trying to insinuate with that sexy giff? I fear your intentions with me are no longer pure...

[sharpobjects]

Well at least the thread cleared up a few things. 

 

Some of the issues raised were in response to typos.

 

As for the rest, well at least we voiced our opinion with regards to our disagreement with the direction Malifaux is going at this years Gen Con tournament.

 

I do like that Justin is open minded to making changes next year if called for.  

[Joel]

so, how do I actually sign up to play in these events?

[Icemyn]

I like that Wyrd is choosing to run varying styles of tournaments at Gen Con.

I think it is a good idea.

I do not think the fun formats should be run together with the real format.

I believe Wyrd would be better served running the Gaining Grounds qualifiers and Finals as the central focus. 

 

Last year if there was not an event happening the Malifaux area was barren. It seems to me the solution is to add more events. It looks like Wyrd agrees as this year there are 5 M2E events over 25 hours whereas last year it was 4 events over 28. More events is certainly a step in the right direction, but there is less time coverage over all. There is so much to see and do at Gen Con that pick up games don't really happen and without an achievement league this year they likely won't happen. It seems the plan from Wyrd is to fill the empty space with Demos, I just don't see that happening. Empty tables don't generate interest.

 

Personally, I would have kept the Qualifiers as they were and cut into the demos for the fun format side events.

4x Eight man Enforcer Brawls with top 2 qualifying for an Enforcer Brawl Championship Sunday would have been a good idea.

 

The thought seems to be that one of the people who qualifies via the Gaining Grounds format is going to win over the fun format qualifiers. If that is the case why have them qualify? Again I like the fun formats I just don't think they should have commingled. I would have 100% been behind a set of qualifiers and championships for each of the formats separately, definitely not together.  

[Icemyn]

so, how do I actually sign up to play in these events?

Registration opens Monday for all events. 

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

I thought it said sunday

[Victoria]

Sunday at noon eastern. 

[Joel]

on the gen con site?