Mah.

[thebarbalag]

So, looking at the Outcast's forum's conversation about Misaki, who, to my eye, resembles Mrs. Tucket, at least to some extent, I've been thinking about our melee beater Master (yeah, I know, she's more than that, and that's what I want to chat about).

 

Anybody proxying her? Theoryfaux? I've read the pullmyfinger article, which is good, but with some small hope that we'll see a lot of new plastic come Gencon, I'd lot to have a conversation about her.

 

My worry is that she's a little one-dimensional as a Master. The "sac a Bayou to give everybody +flips" trick, and Chores buffs aside, what do you see her bringing to the table beyond big damage output and Trixie?

[Math Mathonwy]

The Pushes. That's her main thing, IMO. Her damage really isn't all that stellar (Ophelia is of course ridiculously better) but she is just full of Pushes.

If you use her a melee beatstick and expect stuff to die like to Lady Justice or even Misaki, I think that you will be sorely disappointed. She is more like Von Schill in that she is capable but not spectacular in melee. But her Pushes are where it's at.

With the potential for 3" Ml and a bazillion Pushes she can bunch up the enemies and then get into position to cause maximal distraction. She is difficult to ignore, she will go down but hopefully by that point the rest of your crew has done enough to win the game. I think that Adran would love her

She is the Master I'm most waiting for though from a competitive standpoint I think that she is firmly low tier and the weakest Gremlin Master by a somewhat large margin.

[thebarbalag]

With Critical Strike, and Aim for the Sore Spots, especially with a properly placed Lenny, it seems like she's on par with either Misaki or Lady J for melee damage. She's got no Riposte, and no built in heal, but provided you're not overextending, you should be in range of a Slop Hauler so that isn't so big a deal, plus the option of Armor if you want it, and Disguised, too, it seems like she should be capable of dishing out pretty reliable, and hefty damage on par with just about anybody other melee-focused Master. I see what you mean about the pushing, certainly useful in a great many circumstances. I seems like a player might be tempted to push too far forward with her, too quickly, which could get her killed really quickly, but if you're more patient, I think you could clean up with her in melee. I'll have to put her on the table, but to say that Ophelia is ridiculously better at damage may be overstatement. Ophelia certainly has more ranged threat, but Mah, in decent circumstances (Lenny present, ok hand, available Soulstones) can push out higher minimum damage, and without hurting herself (and, if you got a Ram on Initiative, at Ml 8).

[Clement]

sweet jesus, I will now refer to her has Mrs. Tucket from now on, that's amazing.

[rgarbonzo]

Ophelia has ranged damage, Mah is up close damage that can be more reliable. A Ml 8 will do that for you.  Also she her range is comparable to Ophelia in that her effective threat range is 9" compared to O's 10" and she buffs her entire crew, so if you ever wanted that Ml 7 McTavish or Ml 8 Francois, well there you go, also her totem is a heluva lot more useful than the Young are for Ophelia. 

[Math Mathonwy]

She is extremely resource intensive if you wish to load her up on all her awesome, though. Cheating Initiative with Trixie to win with a high Rams is very expensive, she discards cards for her (0)Actions, sacrifices her own Gremlins for the bonus flip and needs various suits for controlled use of her abilities. In an ideal situation she is indeed a force to be reckoned with but that comes at a very high price.

As for Lenny and the comparison to Ophelia - well, I view Lenny as really squishy support model. When supporting shooters he can stay at least somewhat safe while if he's supporting Mah he will be in the thick of it. Also, Ophelia needs minimal resources to support her. Her damage is extremely reliable.

So yeah, I stand by my opinion that loading up on Rams for a massive critical strike while sporting Ml8 though tempting on paper, is not the optimal way to play her. I maintain that focusing on her Pushes is the way to go.

But that's naturally just my take on things.

[thebarbalag]

No argument that Mah is more resource intensive.

[zFiend]

Hm. Mah can get her min damage and reliability up for a high cost. But Ophelia just does it. From a range. And ranged is in my opinion the strongest form of offense in this game.

Still I am super excited about Mah as well. Her renders were insanely good.

[thebarbalag]

I think that's why I want to look at Mah for more than her own damage-dealing potential, and treat her more like I would Ironsides, who can have a turn or two a game of pure devastation, as opposed to Lady Justice who is much more consistent. Meanwhile, if you're losing Initiative anyway, why not cheat in that Ace of Rams to get Ml 7 Rooster Riders with +flips to attack?

[Math Mathonwy]

Note that there are three other chores, too

Also, saccing a Gremlin who misses in melee is actually a really high cost, too. Not the least because you need to activate the Gremlin to-be-sacced and use it to miss in Melee while you probably have better things to activate. And of course you also lose the Gremlin and how many Bayou Gremlins are you going to be taking with Mah? And will they survive to get into Melee? And how many times will you sac something more expensive? Lass is naturally a special case.

So yeah, again, like Ml 8 Mah, Ml 7 +:fate Rooster Riders are awesome, sure, but the opportunity cost is huge. If you can afford it and the option presents itself, go for it, but don't get fixated upon it and don't rely on it.

Rely on Mah's Pushes

The same goes for Mancha Roja, btw. He seems like a perfect Henchman for Mah being that he is the premier melee Gremlin (well, ok, Francois gives him a run for his money, for sure) but One Thousand Masks is again "Discard a card to" effect. Not a deal breaker, for sure, but something to bear in mind.

Also note Bayou Bushwhackers like to discard cards - Mah's Starter will be quite sucky due to this... It's rather funny that her own special troops have an anti-synergy with her.

[thebarbalag]

I wouldn't sac a Bayou every turn, probably that one key turn. If you can turn 3 stones of Bayou Gremlin into, say, 10+ stones of dead enemies, I'll take the trade.

 

All the discard effects, when taken together seem like a lot, but that's just one of the strategic considerations you make every time you play the game, when it's worth it, and when it's not.

 

Last game I played with Ophelia (this past Thursday), other than turns 1 and 6, I ended up with an empty hand by the end of each turn. I also won 10-3 without losing a single model and the only wounds on any of my stuff being self-inflicted, scoring for Reckoning on Turns 5 and 6 due to my opponent being out of models. When it's worth it, it's worth it.

[rgarbonzo]

You don't have to always go for one over the other. Hell if you take Trixie it gives you the option to cheat the suit you want. Also don't forget that Mah herself can make 5 attacks in one turn and she can charge like a damn Warpig.

[Math Mathonwy]

I wouldn't sac a Bayou every turn, probably that one key turn. If you can turn 3 stones of Bayou Gremlin into, say, 10+ stones of dead enemies, I'll take the trade.

Of course. I'm not denying it. I just don't think that you can rely on that really without considering the implications. Because seriously, activating a Bayou just so it can miss is often a luxury that you can't take on the crucial turn. At least not willy-nilly. I'm not saying that it won't happen - of course it will happen sometimes. It's a good ability. But I don't think that it should be her focus.

To my mind her main focus is disrupting enemy positioning and helping her own crew with theirs. Her damage dealing abilities are secondary, though certainly respectable and very nice.

But you are free to disagree. If you see her mainly as buffing her crew with their melee and hitting things, that's quite all right. The beauty of this game is that you can play this in many ways. I doubt that I would be more successful using her like that than using Ophelia but maybe I'm just not as good with melee Masters.

 

All the discard effects, when taken together seem like a lot, but that's just one of the strategic considerations you make every time you play the game, when it's worth it, and when it's not.

That's what I'm trying to communicate here but apparently failing miserably.

 

Last game I played with Ophelia (this past Thursday), other than turns 1 and 6, I ended up with an empty hand by the end of each turn. I also won 10-3 without losing a single model and the only wounds on any of my stuff being self-inflicted, scoring for Reckoning on Turns 5 and 6 due to my opponent being out of models. When it's worth it, it's worth it.

If you manage that feat with Mah, I'll tip my hat to you

 

You don't have to always go for one over the other. Hell if you take Trixie it gives you the option to cheat the suit you want. Also don't forget that Mah herself can make 5 attacks in one turn and she can charge like a damn Warpig.

I'm probably missing something really obvious, but how does she make 5 attacks? Or rather, all the ways I can think of wouldn't limit to five...

[papa smurf]

Sore spots Charge regular charge and????

[thebarbalag]

Sore spots Charge regular charge and????

 

Edit: Never mind, I'm an idiot.