Feral vs. Pig Sling

[Bogo]

Ulix' "Pig Sling" upgrade provides: "All friendly pigs in play lose the Beast Characteristic."

 

Marcus' "Feral Instincts" upgrade grants a (0) action that applies the following condition to a successfully-targeted model: "Primal: This model gains the Beast Characteristic."

 

Which would control?

[Ausplosions]

Is Pig is in play? Yes.

Pig Loses Beast.

Pig Gains Primal. Gains Beast.

Is pig in play? Yes.

Pig loses Beast.

[Bogo]

That's a good point Myyra.  Because "Pig Sling" doesn't cancel the "Primal" condition, you have two constantly competing rules.  "Pig Sling" keeps saying the pig is not a beast and "Primal" keeps saying the pig is a beast.  I would tend to agree the "specific trumps general" rule means "Primal" should prevail.

[Malal]

I'd go slightly differently.

 

Is pig in play? Yes

 

Pig loses beast

 

Pig gains Primal, gains beast

 

Fin

 

 

There's nothing in the upgrade that say they will lose beast again or that they can't be turned into a beast

[Sholto]

I'm with Ausplosions on this one. Pig Sling would remove Beast no matter how many times the Feral Condition tried to apply it.

[fengor]

I'm with Myyrä. Specific rule wins

[Gremlin guy]

Is Pig Sling a 1 time effect perpig or a continuous effect? It doesn't say "and cannot gain the Beast characteristic" but, since I don't have a rulebook yet (soon) it may be continuous and not matter.

In my limited time back on these forums, I usually agree with Myyrä, but I don't agree with the rational this time. One is not more specific than all, it is just more limiting. If Pig Sling is continuous, it would lose the Beast characteristic (but keep Primal).

[decker_cky]

All pigs are X is a general statement applying to all pigs. This pig is Y is a specific statement. They directly contradict (primal continuously gives beast while pig sling continuously removes it). Specific trumps general so primal wins.

 

Same with the conditions from raptors and canine remains.

[Gremlin guy]

All pigs is a general statement, example all pigs are beast. All friendly pigs in play is not general at all, it is specific to friendly pigs in play. It applies to this friendly pig, that friendly pig, and those friendly pigs. But not that enemy pig or this friendly gremlin.

[lusciousmccabe]

Some games solve this kind of thing by timestamping. Basically if two continuous effects apply a characteristic to an object the most recently applied on takes precedence.

 

There's nothing I'm aware of in the Malifaux rules to allow this but I think it is a reasonable stand-point if you wanted to house-rule it.

[Bogo]

While it is possible to argue that "all pigs in play" is more specific than "all pigs," it is definitely less specific than a single target pig.  And, since the rule says "the more specific of the two rules takes precedence," (emphasis added) it is pretty hard to argue that Primal isn't "more" specific than Pig Sling.

 

Thus, because both rules are constantly in conflict until the Primal condition ends, I think the "more specific" rule pretty much answers the question.  Primal takes precedence.

 

Thanks to everyone for helping sort through this. 

[Gremlin guy]

I have my rulebook now and I agree with Myrrä

[Myyrä]

If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say Primal wins this one, because "In the rare instance that two special rules contradict each other, the more specific of the two rules takes precedence." I'd think Primal is more specific, because it only affects one model.

 

Edit: @Ausplosions The Pig never loses Primal though.