You got a problem; Yo I'll solve it... (Guild problems)

[DesertSpiral]

Hi everyone, so in juxtaposition with the title - the problems are all mine. I've just recently come back into Malifaux and am finding the M2E to be a bit of a challenge. On the surface much is the same yet in the two games I've had so far I feel like I'm just slowly grinding my head into a tree.

In particular I'm struggling to find a solution to the gremlin Pig master (illux??). The key things that are stumping me is firstly the free 20 odd points that get generated every turn as well as the inherent 'fix' against the 'cost' of summoning (ie (1) charges > slow). In addition to this it seems like after taking the charge the war pigs are free to charge again (trigger pending) and so forth. Meaning that a summoned slow pig is charging twice and generating 4+ attacks for free. Not to mention all the ATTACK and damage rolls are boosted from the proximity to major.

I just feel like every turn the synergy engine summons an asteroid and obliterates 6-12 points of my army which is obviously not sustainable.

I've been using Justice with a variety of pieces. I feel like licious with guard rifles could solve it or Sonnia but I would like to think that justice can overcome it.

Maybe the interactions work as intended, it just seems somewhat unbalanced given my limited experience.

Thanks Guildies!

Spiral

[Dirial]

I'll have to pass that question on, as I don't ever play against Ulix. Just as a additional information to base our answers on: How many SS are you playing? Summoners can get vastly unbalanced in smaller games.

[DesertSpiral]

50 point games.

I had justice, executioner, hunter, scales, brutal effigy, au stringer, 2 marshals, 2 hounds,

Expert sleuth and last rites

[zFiend]

I can't answer this all that much either since no one around here (thankfully) plays the Filthery known as Ulix.

I however would using judge instead of the executioner as they cost the same but with the exception that one of them is actually good while the other is far from it.

[Dirial]

The Executioner is good in exactly one set of circumstances: If he's run with McCabe, and the Mech Riders gives you trouble.

[zFiend]

The Executioner is good in exactly one set of circumstances: If he's run with McCabe, and the Mech Riders gives you trouble.

He sure is in a good place.

[Dirial]

He sure is in a good place.

 

[Jewomie]

I have to agree on the Executioner vs the Judge. I have never gotten my SS worth on the Executioner. No matter the master or the situation. When I would run them with Justice or Perdita, they would just lurch forward and never do what I wanted. when I would run them with McCabe, my opponent would target them first knowing they would be decent there.

 

I stopped trying to make them work right after 2.0. Figured there were better things for less points.

 

Judge on the other hand... he was my go-to henchman for a long long time. Still would be if I weren't so deathly afraid of mixing metal and plastic... or he will be again once I buy lady J's new box set.

[MasterDisaster]

My solution to every problem with Lady Justice is kill it and if not, Pinebox it. It seems Ulix and Major are the problem here. Deal with them and the pigs damage output and reliability will be severely hampered. Pinebox the Major and / or Ulix then laugh like a Resser! Sure the Pigs can still charge for (1) but given the lack of  to their flips their efficiency will drop like a stone if you remove Major from the equation.

 

I'm not particularly familiar with Ulix either but you could always consider the ultimate anti-summoning model, Taelor. Taelor's (0) "Welcome to Malifaux" lets her charge any model that's summoned within her LoS and threat range (Cg 6 +3 ). Every time a pig is summoned you charge it and smash it into the dust with her Relic Hammer. After reviewing his summoning upgrade it seems most of Ulix's pigs come in with a fairly low wound count and nothing, repeat, NOTHING likes being on the end of a Relic Hammer, especially a low wound pig. 

[zFiend]

From my understanding with Ulix is that you won't get to him. You'll die on the way trying or you die in the get go.

[wopr1986]

I would suggest apply pressure early and fast, the judge has a pull or even better papa loco with his upgrade. Turn 1 papa gives justice hold this, moves and pulls then she triple walks and that's on the deployment 1-6. You may be able to walk and charge on the others.

Then target the non summons pieces, stone for riposte on the backlash as locos positive negates the negative making them cheatable and never back off. They will probably either use their summmons to target lady J leaving you free to get schemes and strats with your crew and if he moves his support pieces back that's even better for you. If he has a pigapult too then R.I.P just my 2 cents.

[PanzerHarris]

Depending on schemes and strategy, I'd probably run something like this; 

 

Justice (Badge of Office, Last Stand)

Judge (Unrelenting Leader)

Francisco Ortega (Hermanos de Armas, Wade In)

Hunter

Death Marshal

Death Marshal

Brutal Effigy

 

Between Judge and Francisco, you can get Justice 10" up the board before she activates. That gives her a monstrous threat range. Francisco is here as he's also a criminally underrated melee beatstick, and using Unrelenting Leader he can get additional attacks. 

 

Use terrain to your advantage. Justice doesn't need to see a target to charge it, and with Last Stand she's Unimpeded. This means she can stand the other side of a forest or lake and charge across it with no penalty. That catches people out, even at high tournament level!

 

Badge of Office lets you reduce a hit down to 1 damage, so even if your opponent has just Red Jokered for 13 with a Vik, pop the badge and it's 1. Between that, Justice's 0 action heal and Brutal Effigy's condition letting her heal for damage, she can be very tough to take out.

 

Hunters are good for picking on lone targets and dragging them out of position whilst slowing them up. Funny when you drag a model into range of a big wooden box...

 

Executioners sadly are utter garbage. I've tried to make them work but they're just too slow and too fragile to do what they're supposed to do. Equally I don't rate Scales. Does the square root of naff all due to being too damn slow by half.

 

To beat a summoner, identify what they need to summon and then clear it. For example, Nicodem runs off corpse markers, usually generated by Mortimer. Target number one therefore is Mortimer - if you can eliminate him or stop him being useful turn 2 or 3, you're going to have an easier time of it. Ramos likes Scrap markers, so look at removing those if at all possible (I believe Justice has a 1 action Ca for that, so might be worth looking at the Malifaux Child to do it for her).

 

Ulix needs 50mm Pigs, so that's what you go after. Never mind Ulix himself, send Justice after Old Major and his piggy friends. Yes, they're tough, but Justice can easily get up to min damage 5, Francisco to 4, and Judge can generate a ridiculous number of attacks. That will produce a lot of cooling bacon! Once the 50mm pigs are gone then you just have to mop up what's left without worrying about new things appearing. 

 

I know, easier said than done, but have faith. It's a very big sword!

[wopr1986]

Depending on schemes and strategy, I'd probably run something like this;

Justice (Badge of Office, Last Stand)

Judge (Unrelenting Leader)

Francisco Ortega (Hermanos de Armas, Wade In)

Hunter

Death Marshal

Death Marshal

Brutal Effigy

Between Judge and Francisco, you can get Justice 10" up the board before she activates. That gives her a monstrous threat range. Francisco is here as he's also a criminally underrated melee beatstick, and using Unrelenting Leader he can get additional attacks.

Use terrain to your advantage. Justice doesn't need to see a target to charge it, and with Last Stand she's Unimpeded. This means she can stand the other side of a forest or lake and charge across it with no penalty. That catches people out, even at high tournament level!

Badge of Office lets you reduce a hit down to 1 damage, so even if your opponent has just Red Jokered for 13 with a Vik, pop the badge and it's 1. Between that, Justice's 0 action heal and Brutal Effigy's condition letting her heal for damage, she can be very tough to take out.

Hunters are good for picking on lone targets and dragging them out of position whilst slowing them up. Funny when you drag a model into range of a big wooden box...

Executioners sadly are utter garbage. I've tried to make them work but they're just too slow and too fragile to do what they're supposed to do. Equally I don't rate Scales. Does the square root of naff all due to being too damn slow by half.

To beat a summoner, identify what they need to summon and then clear it. For example, Nicodem runs off corpse markers, usually generated by Mortimer. Target number one therefore is Mortimer - if you can eliminate him or stop him being useful turn 2 or 3, you're going to have an easier time of it. Ramos likes Scrap markers, so look at removing those if at all possible (I believe Justice has a 1 action Ca for that, so might be worth looking at the Malifaux Child to do it for her).

Ulix needs 50mm Pigs, so that's what you go after. Never mind Ulix himself, send Justice after Old Major and his piggy friends. Yes, they're tough, but Justice can easily get up to min damage 5, Francisco to 4, and Judge can generate a ridiculous number of attacks. That will produce a lot of cooling bacon! Once the 50mm pigs are gone then you just have to mop up what's left without worrying about new things appearing.

I know, easier said than done, but have faith. It's a very big sword!

Mostly This! Much more thorough than my last post also who on earth underestimates Frank as a beatstick!?

[Dirial]

It's a very big sword!

 

Fact!

[Sholto]

It sounds like Ulix is using Call Forth the Pork to summon War Pigs. This requires 3 friendly scheme markers (easy enough), but also costs Ulix 4 Wds every time he does it and he also needs to burn a 12 or higher from his hand. Ulix can (should) stone to reduce that to, on average, 2 Wds. Still, he only has 10 Wds to start with.

 

He is probably using Corn Husks to generate the Scheme Markers as (0) Actions. If he doesn't take Corn Husks on Ulix consider taking Hans to shoot Corn Husks off whoever has it. Hans can then plink away at Ulix.

 

A Peacekeeper will hoover up Scheme Markers and the pigs will find it hard to do much to him through his Armor and H2W. A Performer can target them from range - wait until he has two down and then try and pop them both, forcing him to start again.

 

As above, Taelor is a nasty counter to summoning-heavy lists. Since the summoning is a Cast action, Witchling Stalkers with Disrupt Magic can be a nuisance, forcing Ulix to Focus or stone for a positive. None of the Casting is suit-dependant, so eg. Hannah is not much use.

[DesertSpiral]

Ho guys, thanks for all the sage advice.

With regards to tactics - the gremlin player usually spends turn one putting down three scheme markers with various pigs and gremlins - the. Has Unix summon a war hog (cheating for damage redux), the. Summons 2-3 little pigs, then uses his heal all action to wipe 2 damage from everything. Then the slop hauler(s) use there mass heal to heal Unix and two pigs each. Then Penelope pushes the warping up 5" who is now just within majors three point aura.

Also because the gremlin force has just grown by 3-4 models I can't maintain an activation advantage - so I get left tapped out before the war pig charges in - or I'm out of position?

I've thought about just ceding ground, however, that just allows the engine to hit overdrive so fast pressure is really required.

Last game I managed to launch Justice into the new war pig as my last activation on two and remove it. Only to have a pig get pushed 5" into b2b with her so it could deliver a message...

Then in the next turn I one shorted it and charge Ullix and removed him thinking if be fine only to have a hog whisperer smack her for 8 damage... Crazy; and since they're all reckless the three gremlin support pieces just took her off the table.

I also used my hunter and prowl to drag major out of position and into a patch of rough ground so he'd be a null factor.

The Dow though has innate positive flips and so does Gracie, in fact the whole force just synergies to a ridiculous level.

I had my au stronger set up pretty conservatively to start dropping birds on them, but a war pig charge in and ricocheted off a marshal and took them both out in one acticvation. Also my executioner failed his terror check (BJ) when charging the sow (do don't causing terror use to mean you didn't suffer it???).

Ok enough moaning. I'll give the Judge a crack, and unfortunately I don't own hammer strike otherwise I'd give her one too.

Cheers all!

[Bloaty]

I play a LOT of Ulix so I'll try to help you out a bit. The biggest problem with Ulix is things with high Df and things that are very mobile and spread out. Once he starts launching pigs out of his death bubble, they get less scary and Piglets only have Ml 4 so even with the   on their first activation, they can miss quite easy (I know mine love to). A big thing to focus on is getting schemes done asap. Ulix has a harder time against things like Power Ritual, Outflank, Distract, Cursed Object, and Protect Territory (kinda). Try to snipe out the key models as fast as possible, starting with Merris usually since she makes free War Pigs real easy. Then the Sow, then Old Major. If you can drop  then that's great after Merris is gone, it makes killing Ulix much easier since you get around his absurd stat line. Things like Peacekeeper and Hunters are great for pulling things away from the ball, like Old Major so it really hurts the buffs for the pigs and Ulix will have less targets to ride on. The Peacekeeper is pretty slow, but if you can intercept anything that may try to rush into him early, he can get there and really mess up the crew. Armor is an annoying thing for Ulix to deal with since he'll just be forced to plink you down slowly and Piglets die fairly easy if you hit them. Old Major, Gracie (if she's there), and especially the Sow are the only true hard hitters in the crew normally, so watch out for them getting to you first (Ulix has a few shenanigans with pushes and out of activation charges). 

 

Honestly, its a master you really need experience with to know how to get around best. He has answers to basically any situation if you build him right and you just gotta know his potential and his vectors and speeds. Practice, practice, practice.

[i9haunter]

Austringers are good at picking out the little pigs (especially after being spawned) and Peacekeeper/Hunters to shoot the bigger pigs and bring them close/dish out slow seems to work. Isolating a few pigs and focusing on them seems to help with the animal farm invasion. Main problem is Gracie running a muck and eliminating minions with her 4/6/8 damage and reactivate.

 

You could try pineboxing the big pigs, but their WP isn't too shabby. Watch out for Ulix using his bow to prod the bigger pigs as well. Maybe a pathfinder/clockwork traps set up midfield to slow the tide. Or try Sidir with his machine gun.

 

Just some thoughts. ( i played against Ulix on Monday with McCabe)

[Jewomie]

Yeah... what about Sidir and the pathfinder, or some riflemen to lay down some cover fire? even using traps to try and slow down the pig advance? if you could keep them at arms length long enough to have your gun line soften them up, then send lady J and Fransisco in there to tear up the heavy hitters?

 

Or even better, since you'd have a gunline softening their ranks, they might be less likely to brave sending someone in to fight lady J or Frank and you would have a little time to get some schemes done (depending on what you need to be doing)

 

just a thought. I haven't seen Ulix on the table yet.

[DesertSpiral]

So I'm thinking for my next attempt, to maybe sub the guardian back into the list and have J face tank the pigs. With the defensive +2 from the guardian - the odds of them missing is really strong and also the odds of hitting riposte are dramatically increased. The other plan of course could be to use lawyers as a front line and since they can impose a negative flip on the attack it can reduce the likelihood of triggers and just steam rolling everyone.

Is there a way to prevent pieces from "charging" at all?

Using the hunter to harpoon major out of the way was a good tactic, and I'm thinking the executioner also has a place as the pigs tend to cheat a lot so triggering bloody display a couple of times would go a long way to shutting them down.

Or combining an exorcist with a judge to just put out massive damage flips onto them and force even more discards.

Thoughts??

[Gipsy_Danger]

Don't be afraid to use the Austringer's Distract trigger to empty his hand, the quicker you can drain Ulix's hand the easier it will be for you to handle him. Another thing you might want to try to dissuade his hunting down of your Marshalls and help Lady J tank the way you want her to is have Franc El Mayor Lady J and box him. Lady J'll stay at Df 7 with a high willpower until Franc's next activation (and buried models don't activate), toss a couple of Hard to Wounds on her from the Lawyer and she won't go anywhere in a hurry. Also, if he kills the Marshall that boxed Franc then Franc can pop out in Melee range and Flurry whatever attacked the Marshall & keep it from moving onto the rest of your crew. I've used this sort of "Road Block" idea a couple of times before, it'll work a treat if you set it up right