Lucius Neverborn Crew, ideas?

[Bodiless]

Pretty much. And Riflemen do not lose their focus at the end of the turn and can focus for (0) with Dashel alive. Dashel gives them +flip to sh actions within 12", so they could shoot into hard cover with a +flip to hit and cancel the -flip damage from the cover. A rifleman could double walk turn 1, 0 to focus, then on turn 2 shoot focus shoot at 3/5/6 going to 4/6/7 on a ram at 14". And that is before Lucius hands out any extra actions. Not much is going to survive if more than one can draw los to it, cover or not. And if they catch a model out of cover then on paper a single rifleman will take down the vast majority of models in a single activation

 

I'm actually hoping this build is not very good, and that I will learn some good tricks for countering range-heavy crews. Because I'm finding that even on tables with really good Malifaux terrain I frequently end up having to close the distance across an open stretch of board and just getting decimated if my opponent has any kind of heavy ranged element. 

[Soul Puppet]

The strength of focused ranged attacks is exactly the reason why Malifaux benefits from lots of terrain.

 

Of course, that doesn't get around Austringers or TT Archers...

[Bodiless]

The strength of focused ranged attacks is exactly the reason why Malifaux benefits from lots of terrain.

 

Of course, that doesn't get around Austringers or TT Archers...

 

And, unfortunately, this brings me back to a premise I formulated the first time I got blown off the table by Perdita, and has subsequently been reinforced by being blown off the table by Rasputina and Sonnia.

 

1. Without enough LOS blocking terrain, ranged armies dominate table-top wargames.

2. The vast majority of tables you will play on do not have enough terrain.

 

 

I'm willing to bet that my Lucius crew will be my most successful Neverborn crew, on average, because for the most part there will not be enough LOS blocking terrain to protect models from that many focused shots per turn. At any rate that is the hypothesis I am planning to test. My hope is that playing it from the other side will actually let me see the weaknesses of the ranged game and will help my other crews, but I'm not overly optimistic about that. 

[zFiend]

There is also the problem that I've found (and I am not pointing fingers here) that many players that use Ranged crews often get very blinded by the amount of terrain when they start feeling that they are being handicapped on purpose ("I want to shoot something"). That again leads to the fact that it's really tough to play with a "sufficient amount" of terrain. 

 

When you play two melee crews and have a lot of terrain it doesn't matter and it feels fun and cool (we've played this multiple times) but once the ranged addition gets in, that's when things get hazy. Also it's really tough to be on the melee side and not put too much terrain in fear of the ranged threat. 

 

So the "sufficient amount" terrain per the rulebook is actually really tough to actually balance and even when it's done properly that's when the flips and free focus that is going around kicks in and it again negates the cover further making the ranged threat feel very easily overwhelming.

 

Just my thoughts though. 

[Soul Puppet]

We used to have a running joke is 1st edition: "Guild friendly table" which referred to having few terrain pieces and/or excellent fire lanes that the opposing crew was forced to use.

 

M2E is better in that there are lots more ways to get additional negative flips or increased protection but on the wrong table this problem still exists. Most TOs in the UK are pretty good with terrain set up these days and I rarely feel I can't compete against a ranged crew with a melee crew now.

 

Although I still find Sonnia a problem! ;0)

[SpiralngCadavr]

Yeah, agreed w/ Zfiend, range vs. melee is tricky to get the right density. I try to err on the side of a little too much, but it always feels like there are gauntlets a smart ranged crew can set up where there's a wide path of open ground.

[Bodiless]

We used to have a running joke is 1st edition: "Guild friendly table" which referred to having few terrain pieces and/or excellent fire lanes that the opposing crew was forced to use.

 

M2E is better in that there are lots more ways to get additional negative flips or increased protection but on the wrong table this problem still exists. Most TOs in the UK are pretty good with terrain set up these days and I rarely feel I can't compete against a ranged crew with a melee crew now.

 

Although I still find Sonnia a problem! ;0)

 

So, my game last night...

 

Turn 1: Sonnia gets Hold This from Papa Loco and kills a Waldgeist in a single activation. Blasts damage Graves, Lilith, and Bad Juju.

Turn 2: Sonnia kills Graves, Lilith, and Bad Juju. 

 

At no point did she have LOS to Lilith. This took a fairly crazy set of circumstances to set up and I am by no means suggesting it is typical, but it is what got me to thinking again about the power of ranged crews in Malifaux. Sonnia was up on a hill a few inches back from the center of the board, and there was basically nowhere I could move without getting blasted. I worked through the odds in another thread at one point and realized that if Dreamer is in range of Sonnia or a target she can spark blasts off she will reliably kill him in a single activation. But theoryfaux is just that, so I am going to run the experiment with Lucius and see what happens. If nothing else it will be fun to be slinging fire downrange for a change.

[Myyrä]

Yeah, agreed w/ Zfiend, range vs. melee is tricky to get the right density. I try to err on the side of a little too much, but it always feels like there are gauntlets a smart ranged crew can set up where there's a wide path of open ground.

Just adding more blocking, impassable, hard cover houses doesn't really do the trick because they will make life just as difficult for the melee crew as they do on the ranged crew, because they limit movement so much that the melee crew is forced to take routes that are easy to anticipate and block. I think that pretty much the best you can realistically hope for is a table where you can always find cover if you are willing to sacrifice few inches of movement. (Not trying to disagree with you, merely making an observation.)

 

Malifaux rules also happen to state that factions are selected after setting up the table. Not all factions are going to fare equally well on different tables, but that doesn't favor one player over the other in theory in a perfect world where everyone has as many Malifaux minis as they want (all of them). Practice is a whole another thing of course, with most tournaments for example being single faction and so on.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Yeah, Sonnia and to a lesser extent Rasputina do terrifying things with getting a ton of range in.

 

Also, recently I've begun to value strong blast damage as one of the best abilities in the game, for just that sort of reason. The last 3 games I've had a 4 explosive damage, I've had single activations take out 15-ish points of guys.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Just adding more blocking, impassable, hard cover houses doesn't really do the trick because they will make life just as difficult for the melee crew as they do on the ranged crew, because they limit movement so much that the melee crew is forced to take routes that are easy to anticipate and block. I think that pretty much the best you can realistically hope for is a table where you can always find cover if you are willing to sacrifice few inches of movement. (Not trying to disagree with you, merely making an observation.)

 

Malifaux rules also happen to state that factions are selected after setting up the table. Not all factions are going to fare equally well on different tables, but that doesn't favor one player over the other in theory in a perfect world where everyone has as many Malifaux minis as they want (all of them). Practice is a whole another thing of course, with most tournaments for example being single faction and so on.

Faction is definitely tricky, since no one I know comes in with several factions. The most I ever bring is a pair of faction masters and a dual-faction that bridges the pair, and I think I've never had anyone actually go in that order (while meeting or setting up terrain is when the question of which faction you're playing and what game size). Even when playing at home when I have access to a ton options, I'll usually be debating between a couple masters I want to try and never deciding factions after board setup.

 

Regarding impassible, yeah, moderately sparse solid buildings, lots of walls and low walls, and a few forests etc. is how it usually ends up (more often than not based on what terrain collections are available).

[Bodiless]

Yeah, Sonnia and to a lesser extent Rasputina do terrifying things with getting a ton of range in.

 

Also, recently I've begun to value strong blast damage as one of the best abilities in the game, for just that sort of reason. The last 3 games I've had a 4 explosive damage, I've had single activations take out 15-ish points of guys.

 

Yep, saw that, still wearing the t-shirt. And I know that if I had been more spread out I wouldn't have taken so much damage,  but to avoid getting blasted by Sonnia on a severe you have to be 8" apart. I'm not sure many crews can maintain that level of separation and actually accomplish anything. 

[Myyrä]

Faction is definitely tricky, since no one I know comes in with several factions. The most I ever bring is a pair of faction masters and a dual-faction that bridges the pair, and I think I've never had anyone actually go in that order (while meeting or setting up terrain is when the question of which faction you're playing and what game size). Even when playing at home when I have access to a ton options, I'll usually be debating between a couple masters I want to try and never deciding factions after board setup.

 

Regarding impassible, yeah, moderately sparse solid buildings, lots of walls and low walls, and a few forests etc. is how it usually ends up (more often than not based on what terrain collections are available).

I actually often carry several factions with me. Today when I went to play for example, I had with me 12 masters from 3 different factions and crews to go with them. Not that I actually choose my faction based on the terrain ever, but I suppose I could do it if I wanted to. I mostly bring the stuff along to be prepared to lend other people minis if they want to try something new or want a demo game.

[Nical]

Lucius Neverborn Crew's greatest merit is Guild models. As Bodiless says, Nobody predict "Neverborn Firing Squad" before playing against them.  

So I often use lucius for "surprising" roster. For Example.... 

 

Neverborn Crew - 50 - Scrap

Lucius -- 4 Pool
+Secret Assets [2]
+Suprisingly Loyal [1]

Primordial Magic [2]
Bad Juju [8]
+Hexed Among You [1]
Guild Austringer [6] 
Guild Austringer [6]
Guild Pathfinder [6]
Guild Pathfinder [6]
Waldgeist [6]
Waldgeist [6]

 

This roster's points are occupying important points and Alpha Strikes by From the Shadow. 

Simply, you can begin to shoot opponent's models in 1 turn. 

Other Factions can do like this, but nobody predict Neverborn does. 

[Mxbedlam]

This is a 100% different way to play neverborn. I do like that the geists are there taking up space from the very beginning. They are in the running for favorite Neverborn models.

[admiralvorkraft]

I've never run Neverborn Lucius without an illuminated (or two). Even without much Brilliance play I always get more than 7 Stones worth of work out of them.

[Bodiless]

Yeah, the other version of this crew would have an Illuminated in place of the Doppel. 3 would not be out of the question.

 

I'm sure I'm not the first person to put a list like this on paper, so I'm curious how it has done for people. Is there some obvious trick to countering it that I am about to watch my local group rediscover?

[admiralvorkraft]

Honestly Lucius really shines in Neverborn. Bringing a powerful shooting core to a faction full of fast combat models goes really well. It's not gimmicky, there's no central combo to break, you're just filling your crew with models that Lucius can get a lot of work out of.

[Bodiless]

Nice to know.

 

Scheme and strats have been announced for our Monday game, so now I have something concrete to work with. 

 

Strategy: Guard the Stash

Set Up
Place two 50mm Stash Markers (Ht5, blocking, impassable, hard cover) on the Centerline each 5" on either side of the Center of the board (10" apart from each other).

Victory Points
At the end of each turn after the first, a Crew earns 1 VP if it has at least one non-Peon model within 2" of each Stash Marker.

Deployment: Standard

Schemes:
A Line in the Sand
Protect Territory
Frame for Murder
Assassinate
Deliver a Message

 

Based on this I think I will modify my crew to the following:

 

Lucius [4 cache]

Wings of Darkness, Surprisingly Loyal, Legalese

Primordial Magic

Captain Dashel

3x Riflemen

2x Illuminated

Beckoner

 

I think getting a lure into the crew will be a big help, both to drag enemies away from the stash and to move my riflemen away from melee jammers. Plus she can hand out Brilliance for the Illuminated to work on. Illuminated nail down the stash backed by the firebase. Protect Territory is a pretty straightforward mission for the firebase, and I think Lucius will do a pretty good job at positioning people to Deliver the Message.

[admiralvorkraft]

Only thing I might suggest is dropping one of the Riflemen for a Depleted. You can farm the Depleted for stones all game long (eight wounds and htk make it pay for itself with Devil's Deal) or you can use it as a cheap roadblock piece.

 

But that looks like a solid list. 

[Carcosa]

Have you considered using one pathfinder in that group? It's still a guardsman so your rifleman can still trigger of it and it lets you summon traps to slow down the enemy advance and block melee pathways from your firebase.

[Bodiless]

I like the idea of a Pathfinder for just that, and for the blasts. But I don't own one at this point. 

 

I also like the Depleted idea, but initially I am going to start with MOAR RIFLEMEN as the theme and then adjust down from there.

[zFiend]

Bodiless. That looks like a solid list. Let us know how it goes.

[Myyrä]

If you took one Silurid, you could get almost guaranteed 3 points from Deliver a Message. Not that it is a terribly difficult scheme for Lucius in any case.

[Bodiless]

I agree, Silurids are basically a lock for Deliver. My thinking here though is in line with your second point - that with Lucius I shouldn't really need to add in a model specifically to complete Deliver. That then leaves me free to fill up on rifles and Illuminated and use one of them for Deliver as the opportunity presents. "What Lackeys are For" seems like a great way to get someone into position. Walk-command, walk-command to within range and then swap someone in.

 

Edit: Actually, on further review I will leave off one Illuminated for the Doppelganger after all. I realized on the way into work this morning that the fact that you never flip for her when randomizing shooting is an incredible ability for this crew. Not to mention all of the other great abilities she brings to the table, but the no-randomize ability is one I've only used defensively. Now I could use her to bend bullets around walls.

[zFiend]

That true. Also it might come more as a surprise.