Papa box and why perception is key.

[The Godlyness]

I keep seeing Comments and posts how after giving papa locos Hold this to a model (generally a master) and stuffing him inside a death marshal's box is over powered (op)

Why this is sound tactic.

Pros

One: It gives papa loco a way up field with out the chance of him exploding on your own crew.

Two: you have to kill the death marshal which drops papa loco out who can then activate to do his things. (Unless the second or third ap from the enemy model knocks 9 wounds off him)

Three: The model with Hold This. Has a to damage until Papa loco activates. So while he is buried that stays around.

So with 2 models working as one it comes out to 13 stones.

Cons

One: You lose an activation while papa is buried

Two: you are paying 7 stones which you generally don't use for 2-3 turns.

Three: 13 stones.

Four: Tara pulling papa out of his box and nuking you with him. (Master specific but it happened)

So let's look at other 13 stone things (Or near enough)

Ashes and dust: fast tanky hits hard and had rebirth cycle. Does pulses and in general super good at what ever you want. Also immune to condtions and can't be charged.

Desolation engine: hits hard drops out 2 models when it does built in healing and does pulses.

Coryphee duet (14 stones) super fast. Can't be charged gets s on almost everything and has a heal.

Howard Langston 12 stones. Nimble flurry does crazy damge and can produce cover.

So papa box is 13 stones for a to damage carried by a death Marshall. Who by far is easier to kill than the things above. So paying 7 stones for a +fate seems quite balanced and not op in any way. So why is it perceived that this is a wombo combo that knows no equal?

Well three of the guild masters don't care about papa loco and his . Lucious,McCabe,Hoffman. But the other 4 benefit from it.

[hypoking]

Its a neat trick but its not op in itself. Honestly only comes close when you're putting Sonia on a positive, but that's got nothing to do with the marshal. Cause really, ca 9, ignoring cover and los does not need any more help ruining someone's day.

[rsteelrose]

I tend to keep Papa Loco in my case and run Abuela instead, I feel like I get more out of her,

[Myyrä]

I just take both Papa and Abuela.

[EnternalVoid]

I have used Papa plenty of times with Guild *and a couple with Zoraida* though I don't use the pine box trick as I generally want something else.  As I use him with Perdita primarily I rarely need the positive damage for more than the first two turns *well I could use it but it has done its damage*

[Csonti]

Cons

One: You lose an activation while papa is buried

Two: you are paying 7 stones which you generally don't use for 2-3 turns.

Three: 13 stones.

One: This means usually turn 2 and 3, a handicap for sure but not that harsh. And you will have the buff on your Master for 4 turns in this case.

Two: Actually you use that "7 stones" the hardest when Papa is in the box and a Master shoots things to pieces.

Three: 13 stones indeed but you still have a Marshal to activate, move around, hold a quarter, take some shots, place markers, distract the enemy's plans etc. And still have a chance to unleash Loco on the enemy at the second half of the game. So the real price to get  on damage on your Master usually isn't 13 SS.

 

Four: Tara pulling papa out of his box and nuking you with him. (Master specific but it happened)

 

Yeah, practically the only hard counter. There are other ways to dig out Loco but those need much more resources and some help from the player who plays the Loco trick. And even if you happen to play against Tara you simply don't use the combo and play with the two pieces as normal. Maybe you could have spent better your 13 SS but they are certainly not unplayable models even without the bury shenanigans. 

 

So papa box is 13 stones for a to damage carried by a death Marshall. Who by far is easier to kill than the things above. So paying 7 stones for a +fate seems quite balanced and not op in any way. So why is it perceived that this is a wombo combo that knows no equal?

 

We disagree here. Most of your examples need to be played in an aggressive way which means the opponent at least have a chance to tackle them. I don't think a Desolation Engine is harder to be dispatched than a Death Marshal who is carefully positioned (out of LoS and evading any serious harm) - while Sonnia with  is nearby to blow up anyone who dares to interfere. But even if you are willing to move forward the enemy, the DM is not that easy to kill and when he is gone there goes a serious retaliation in face of some burning dynamites.

 

On a more general approach:

I think it is not accidental that you keep hearing concerns about this combo. In M2E you need to work much harder for a   on the damage flip than it was the case in v1.5. For example Charge now doesn't grant that. It is also a fact that the most potent Actions (like Obey and friends) usually have the non-Leader restriction.

 

But here we have a buff that grants  on every damage flip, doesn't end for many turns and the enemy doesn't have any simple way to get rid of it (except Tara), can be put on a Master who could be a so fierce piece as Sonnia who can harm A LOT of models from far away if she reaches the moderate/severe level thanks to Pyrokinesis and the many she can lay down.

Hypoking mentioned that Sonnia doesn't really need that  on damage since she could attack with Ca9. She could but that comes with a pretty steep price (especially if you face "drop some cards or die" type enemies) and even with Ca9 against a normal Df5 guy she needs a 2+ better card than the target to reach the cheatable range. With Loco's help this turns around to a need for a card that could be even 3 point weaker than the opponent's. This makes a real difference. You can preserve your high cards for the damage flip.

With all that said I can't say with 100% certainty that this is an OP combo. Especially not if we define OP as a thing that you couldn't win against (but maybe OP should not have a so harsh definition). I think this trick is a very safe mechanism that enhances a Master's potential (and when I say Master, I mean Sonnia) to a stellar level. This provides a steep uphill battle in most of the cases.

[Kogan Style]

Not a Guild expert other than playing Lady J, but none of those other 13 stone options are available to any of the Guild masters bar Hoffman (I think?) so we don't have the luxury of drawing on those models. Your OP tactic can also apply to Francisco and buffing Df and Wp while delivering a melee model right where you need it. 

[The Godlyness]

I was giving examples of similar costing things. Wether or nor not Guild could have was never my intention.

So with one master (Sonnia) this becomes perceived op. Only cause she does blast damage. While things like McMourning just single targets stab things Or Dita single target shoots things.

But if this is so great why is guild never near anything that might look like a ranking or a tournament? Why isn't every one just spamming Sonnia and papa ftw?

And countering it is the same way you counter any ranged list. Engage the threat. Or if your Dita just shoot back.

Arcanists have it easy with raptors but every faction has movement shenanigans. Also cover ca9 or not being on a negative flip is painful. So focus works sure but ap spent right?

[jonahmaul]

With the caveat that I've not played against this combo it doesn't seem particularly OP, especially as you say compared to other combinations and/or models that can be pulled off in the game.

 

Another con would be that Papa Loco has to activate every turn he's in the box which forces a duel to see if he can be unburied (I believe that it's automatic once you activate right?).  Jokers could ruin your plans on keeping him in there and it could also drain cards if your'e forced to cheat to make sure the DM wins the duel and Loco stays in his box (he is mad after all and might not see the benefit!).

[Csonti]

Another con would be that Papa Loco has to activate every turn he's in the box which forces a duel to see if he can be unburied (I believe that it's automatic once you activate right?).  Jokers could ruin your plans on keeping him in there and it could also drain cards if your'e forced to cheat to make sure the DM wins the duel and Loco stays in his box (he is mad after all and might not see the benefit!).

 

Not really. This is an opposed duel between two friendly models. Loco can relent, no matter what the DM flips.

[Csonti]

But if this is so great why is guild never near anything that might look like a ranking or a tournament? Why isn't every one just spamming Sonnia and papa ftw?

Various things could be the answer to this. Maybe not enough people playing Sonnia to have an impact. Maybe this combo wasn't noticed by many who play her yet. Maybe some of us see it but find the playstyle so boring that forces us to skip it. And maybe because it is not at all OP.

Out of curiosity: do you win frequently when you decide to use this combo?

[rgarbonzo]

I was giving examples of similar costing things. Wether or nor not Guild could have was never my intention.

So with one master (Sonnia) this becomes perceived op. Only cause she does blast damage. While things like McMourning just single targets stab things Or Dita single target shoots things.

Arcanists have it easy with raptors but every faction has movement shenanigans. Also cover ca9 or not being on a negative flip is painful. So focus works sure but ap spent right?

 

Ca 9 with Ancient Runes often means a against models, hell even against a Wp 6 model in cover it means a straight flip with positive to damage. 

[The Godlyness]

Not really. This is an opposed duel between two friendly models. Loco can relent, no matter what the DM flips.

Papa is the attacker he can't relent.

[Myyrä]

Papa is the attacker he can't relent.

Perhaps you should read text on Pine Box again.

[The Godlyness]

I don't wanna I want to burn cards I don't need

So any ways .....

I keep forgetting to mention lady j. Having a when charging makes her more super deadly

Oh and my last two games I tied vs Marcus when Sonnia got eaten by a giant 3 headed cat. After I failed to kill it with Sonnia.

And my last game Sonnia killed 2 models a trapper and a nothing beast. So me winning or losing is really based of my whole crews performance

[Bloodrush]

Seems pricey taking a marshall just for the insurance and to lose an activation, lets face it that marshall will have a massive bullseye on his face and won't be running around doing schemes very freely with that much heat on him. So its 13 points hiding away most of the game until you play peek-a-BOOM! late game or when is needed.

 

I would be more inclined to have him in cover and just push him next to master before he activates. The Family upgrade 'Hermanos De Armas' could be great here on Francisco, he will be near master buffing them anyway and can use the (0) to push Loco 5" toward him and your master. Companion chain Loco, give master the buff then walk 5" away again. Judge could use a similar push, also Enslaved Nephilim. Obey seems like a waste here. Not sure what non-family could do that trick aside from Judge though.

 

This tactic is terrain dependant of course but if youre using him to buff Dita or Crid they will most likely be in or around cover themselves anyway.

[Myyrä]

Seems pricey taking a marshall just for the insurance and to lose an activation, lets face it that marshall will have a massive bullseye on his face and won't be running around doing schemes very freely with that much heat on him. So its 13 points hiding away most of the game until you play peek-a-BOOM! late game or when is needed.

What keeps the Marshal alive is the fact that most players don't appreciate Papa Loco activating in their face, which is usually exactly what happens when the Marshal is killed. Gotta watch out for ranged attackers though.

[The Godlyness]

That's why I run him (dm) right towards the enemy crew. Turn 3 he should make it turn 2 is setup for turn 3 (ie cover defensive etc) But after turn 3 either crews are dead depleted or not near him so papa works on objectives.

[Dirial]

Just for your statistics:

 

Last time I ran this combo (Sonnia+Papa+Marshal), I lost pretty hard against a Kirai crew. My opponent played a vicious positioning game.

Last time I played Sonnia without the other two, I won against a Tara crew played by the same opponent.

 

I like the combo, but I don't find it to be mandatory. Sometimes, Sonnia does perfectly well shooting single targets, putting down fire walls and summoning Witchlings. She is a strong Master without blasts, and other models might do more than Papa and the Marshal.