Premeasuring, and premoving

[Sevorin]

 So in my game with Razhem, something came up that I never saw.

 

 Raz believed that premeasuring in the game also allowed for you to move you model, premeasure/check LoS, etc, then move it back to where it began without ever having activated that model.

 

 Example: McMourning premeasures distances by walking 15" then measuring abilities, then going back where he began (all without ever activating).

 

 The way I understood premeasure was that you could measure at anytime from a model, from where it is. Premeasuring is not the same as "premoving" (to me, anyhow). He said this is how it was played.

 

 

 Have I been playing it wrong?

[Ausplosions]

This is what I would like to think the rules allow. And as written, that is what they allow. But Justin's post seems to advise otherwise.

My group measures anything at anytime from anywhere on the table to anywhere else.

For instance, in my turn I might measure the distance between two enemy models to see if I'll catch them with a blast, measure the distance between a gap in terrain to see if I can fit a base through it, measure the distance from cover to an enemy to see if they benefit, then measure out multiple moves and ranges from several points of the move. Then I activate.

Every measurement I tell my opponent the distance and while I'm doing that, they can measure anything they like also.

All of this takes very little time in our games and is one of he greatest things about this version for 2 reasons. It actually reduces the length of time it takes to play our games because several of our group suffer from analysis paralysis when there's a line ball call to make, now hey don't have to make line ball calls on distances. Secondly it stops arguments because both players measure, agree and then make the moves, rather than making a move and then arguing over distances.

My personal opinion is that no limits on measurement is great for the game.

[Sevorin]

That's not how the first post reads but thank you for clearing that up.

We have always played it the way Justin statement intends (at least, how we read it - you may measure from the point of the model to the point you want to check, but only for the Action you are currently using) so we never map out an entire activation in advance. 

We do allow multiple checks for the first AP of any model, but once you decide which model you activate, that is the one you carry on with, even if later actions prove to be out of range. We like the element of risk

 Yeah, this is how we've played it since closed beta.

[Therril_83]

Rules Manual, pg15

Players are allowed to measure distances at any time during a game

of Malifaux. Because models are constantly being moved on the

table during a game, premeasuring allows players to have an accurate

understanding of where those models are as well as area effects that

may or may not influence their Actions. Players are encouraged to be

respectful of one another when premeasuring and not delay the game

or distract an opponent with constant measuring.

 

 

I think this supports what Baskinders is saying. And I've also been playing like that with my friends, measure anything at anytime, but let the opponent know your findings, on account of sportsmanship.

[daemonkin]

When pre-measuring I would never move my actual model but will drop a counter to where I pre-measure to and from that counter do the same again. That resolves any confusion as to where the model is/was and where I want him to be for the next action.

 

D.

[jonahmaul]

We premeasure all the time in our games but we never move the models.  Usually we just put our finger at the end and then work out whatever it is we're looking for (i.e. if I move here will my Aura be in range).  Sometimes we measure on from that finger if necessary but usually we just work out total distances (as it's often walk/charge/melee range).  Personally I think premeasuring is a fantastic rule as it stops arguments and people can agree before the models are moved.  For this reason I think it's important the models themselves shouldn't be moved whilst premeasuring as it can then create ambiguities about the starting position which could lead to arguments.

[deValmont]

  I would say that just premeasuring and not premoving, as Justin suggests the rules state. I say this because I have been in a position where I've measured a model, moved it up, and then realised I couldn't do what I wanted to. My opponent was fine with me moving the model back, but when I did and measured again I couldn't be totally sure that I hadn't subconsciously placed it slight better positioned for this second move. My opponent wasn't sure either and so I ended up not doing either of my planned things with that model (I think I just moved it a bit and put down a scheme marker).

 

  I am a bit of a worrier because I am quite clumsy - I constantly worry that my opponent thinks I do things for my benefit when it's usually just me nudging a model when measuring by accident. And sometimes I probably handicap myself to prevent these situations, so I wouldn't risk premoving any more. 

 

 What you could do, though, is keep some spare bases around. I'm sure that a reasonable opponent wouldn't mind you popping down an empty base where you want to move your model to, for LoS checking.

[Myyrä]

Rules don't really limit what kind of measuring tools you can use. That pretty much means that you can use a tool that can be used to measure 15mm to every direction from a point.

[moxypoo]

You may measure from where your model is to any other point and check LoS from where it is to any other point. That's all the rules officially allow.

 

This is essentially how my group plays premeasuring.  For example, if I want my master who has a Wk of 5 to take 3 walks, then I'll pull out 15" on my tape measure, and proceed to bend the tape as much as necessary to plan a path for where I want the model to end up.  We tend to do the same thing for determining whether models will be in range of each other for attacking, , or after moving; for a model with a Wk5 and a range 5 , just measure a 15" path, and that's the furthest point from the model's current position that can be affected by the aura this turn (assuming 2 AP).  This method ensures that you don't mess up your measuring by misplacing measurement markers on the board and eliminates the possibility of moving a model from its position until it actually spends AP.

 

With Vassal this isn't really possible, so things get a little fuzzy (of course, I may just not be bright enough to use Vassal correctly!)

 

We also tend to have our next activation planned out before our opponent finishes their turn, so that cuts down on a lot of the need to plan each AP independently of each other. 

[SpiralngCadavr]

I agree with those who drop a base in place, and that the spirit of premeasuring is that careful positioning shouldn't allow you to fail the action.

[Therril_83]

In a related note, but maybe slightly different, what do people think about measuring around corners by bending your measuring tape?

Personally, I don't really like it, because I find that you can't really take the models base into account when doing that, and end up gaining extra movement by just bending your measuring tape around the corner instead.

Is this just my gripe and I should work on ignoring it, or does anyone else also dislike it?

[Ausplosions]

In a related note, but maybe slightly different, what do people think about measuring around corners by bending your measuring tape?

Personally, I don't really like it, because I find that you can't really take the models base into account when doing that, and end up gaining extra movement by just bending your measuring tape around the corner instead.

Is this just my gripe and I should work on ignoring it, or does anyone else also dislike it?

 

 

I know that it isn't accurate, but I'm not overly bothered. Unless it is an obvious and deliberate attempt to gain an advantage. So it's not often i'll pull someone up on it...

[Patzer]

I am ok with the marker-drop and checking distances on Vassal, granted that it doesn't slow the game down too much. If you want to do it on a pivotal turn where a slight millimetre will ruin your plan, fine. Just be reasonable with it!

[jonahmaul]

In a related note, but maybe slightly different, what do people think about measuring around corners by bending your measuring tape?

Personally, I don't really like it, because I find that you can't really take the models base into account when doing that, and end up gaining extra movement by just bending your measuring tape around the corner instead.

Is this just my gripe and I should work on ignoring it, or does anyone else also dislike it?

It's a good indication and in my group if we measure like that then we tend to make an allowance for the base by bending it out a bit further around terrain or other models.  If somebody was deliberately trying to gain an advantage by doing so I could see it as being a problem

[Myyrä]

When someone seems a bit too optimistic about their ability to move around terrain, be it because of bending the tape bit too close to terrain or other reasons, I just tell them to actually move the model and measure every move if they are so sure about their measurements. (They can use a extra base to do that if they aren't quite that sure themselves.)

[sharpobjects]

My group measures anything at anytime from anywhere on the table to anywhere else.

For instance, in my turn I might measure the distance between two enemy models to see if I'll catch them with a blast, measure the distance between a gap in terrain to see if I can fit a base through it, measure the distance from cover to an enemy to see if they benefit, then measure out multiple moves and ranges from several points of the move. Then I activate.

Every measurement I tell my opponent the distance and while I'm doing that, they can measure anything they like also.

All of this takes very little time in our games and is one of he greatest things about this version for 2 reasons. It actually reduces the length of time it takes to play our games because several of our group suffer from analysis paralysis when there's a line ball call to make, now hey don't have to make line ball calls on distances. Secondly it stops arguments because both players measure, agree and then make the moves, rather than making a move and then arguing over distances.

My personal opinion is that no limits on measurement is great for the game.

 

 

This is how my community plays as well. 

[Gorbad]

Doing it the way baskinders describe should also be faster compared to forcing someone to use trigonometry to work out those other distances. You can get all those other distances even if all you allow is measuring from a model to a point, it just takes a lot longer.

[SpiralngCadavr]

On bending rulers, yes, under two conditions:

One: They're estimating range

Two: they're measuring around something difficult, like moving around a circle, and I'd expect them to be conservative.

Anything that can be measured with straight lines should be.