Alp Question regarding "Never Wake Up"

[Shakes]

This might sound much more complicated than it is, so please track with me. I've included a rules Glossary at the bottom.

 

If an enemy model with 2 wounds activates next to an Alp and a Sorrow, it triggers the "Smother" ability then fails the wp duel  taking 1 damage from "Feed on Dreams" and taking 1 damage from "Misery", does it count as having died from "Feed on Dreams" for the purpose of "Never Wake Up", therefore summons another Alp?

 

Here's another scenario,

 

What if an enemy has 1 wound and an Alp does moderate damage for 1 damage + Slow, does it get to summon another Alp due to "Never Wake Up"?

 

 

Rules Glossary

 

"Smother"

 

Enemy models Activating withing  3 of one or more models with this Ability must pass a TN 12 Wp duel or receive Slow.

 

"Misery"

 

When an enemy model within  6 of this model fails a Wp duel, it suffers 1 damage after resolving the current Action.

 

"Feed on Dreams"

 

Enemy models that receive Slow within  3 of this model suffer 1 damage

 

"Never Wake Up"

 

If an enemy model is killed by "Feed on Dreams" while within   3 of one or more friendly Alps, summon an Alp into base contact with the model before removing it.

[Dirial]

I think no, in both cases.

 

The first model dies of Misery, thus Never Wake Up doesn't trigger.

The second model dies of the Alp's attack, thus Never Wake Up doesn't trigger.

[Kadeton]

In the first case, the damage abilities seem to resolve simultaneously - they both occur when the Wp duel is failed. The acting player gets to choose the order of operations - you could take the Misery damage first, then Feed on Dreams, and summon an Alp.

The second one is a bit hairier - I'd say the model is killed as soon as you do the initial damage from the attack, so it can't be considered killed from the additional Feed on Dreams damage.

[Dirial]

In the first case, the damage abilities seem to resolve simultaneously - they both occur when the Wp duel is failed. The acting player gets to choose the order of operations - you could take the Misery damage first, then Feed on Dreams, and summon an Alp.

 

Misery resolves after the current action is resolved. I just assumed it would come after Feed on Dreams, although I'm not sure if activation or the simple duel count as an action in this case. However, Misery does not resolve the instant a Wp duel is failed, so I still believe the first case is a "No".

[Bengt]

One could argue that Misery only does damage if the Wp duel was the result of an Action. In that case it wouldn't trigger at all on Smother. Not sure if that is the intent, but the Ability text does seem to hang on there being an Action.

[Stupid Bob]

I think the language "after resolving the current Action" is used to imply (brevity is key!) "after the current action or ability or whatever made this happen is resolved" and is done to keep the order of operations clear (specifically to prevent actions/abilities interrupting other actions/abilities)

 

I think the sequence of events would be:

 

-Model Activates

-Smother requires a WP test

-WP test is failed & Model gains Slow. This resolves the Smother ability

-Two abilities then happen simultaneously (Misery & Feed On Dreams), controlling player then chooses order.

-Misery would be chosen to happen first, doing 1 Wd

-Feed On Dreams would then happen, doing 1 Wd and killing the model

-Never Wake Up then happens

[Adran]

But surely the timing of feed on dreams should be before misery.

They don't happen at the same time. Misery states it happens at the end of everything else. (well at the end of the action).

So it has to happen after feed on dreams will have happened and resolved.

[Dirial]

-Two abilities then happen simultaneously (Misery & Feed On Dreams), controlling player then chooses order.

 

Would it? We have no inclination of that. Feed on Dreams triggers when a model gains slow, while Misery triggers after an action is resolved during which a model failed a Wp duel.

 

I think Adran's interpretation is correct.

[Myyrä]

I think Bengt is (close to) correct. Misery is worded in a way that means that it can't do any damage unless the Wp duel was during an action. It doesn't have to be a Wp duel generated by that action though. For example a Horror Duel caused by targeting a terrifying opponent would work. I'm not saying this is how it's intended to work, but it seems pretty much pointless to argue about timing of Misery damage outside actions.

 

You should just flip a coin and wait for FAQ in my opinion.

[Dirial]

You should just flip a coin and wait for FAQ in my opinion.

 

Agreed with this.

[Stupid Bob]

Misery is worded in a way that means that it can't do any damage unless the Wp duel was during an action. 

 

There are lots of things in the game that tell you to resolve them after an Action, where the situation is not necessarily caused by an Action.

 

This in no way implies that the cause must be an action. It simply clarifies that if it were caused by an action, it is resolved after completing the action.

 

In the above, the cause of the WP duel is the Smother ability. Smother causes a WP duel or target gains slow. When the WP duel is failed, the target gains slow. Then any other abilities that happen based on failing a WP duel or something gaining Slow would happen.

 

Feed on Dreams triggers when a model gains slow, while Misery triggers after an action is resolved during which a model failed a Wp duel.

 

 

Misery does not require an action, it only requires a failed WP duel. 

 

I think you guys are reading way to much in to things. I strongly recommend you read this article by Justin about the language or rules:

 

http://justindrawingdead.com/?p=286

 

I am very much of the opinion that the language "after resolving the current Action" is a short 'fit it on the card' way of saying "after resolving whatever happened to cause this to happen in the first place". There are several situations in the game where that language is used but the situation may not happen due to an action. 

[Dirial]

I've read that article. Nowhere does it say "If there is a wording that you're not sure of, ignore it". All I'm saying on this particular issue is that one of the abilities in question has a timing in its wording while the other has not. Therefore, it's not a given that they are resolved at the same time, just because they are triggered by the same event.

 

Because of this, I would rule it the conservative way, apply Misery at the end, and thus wouldn't allow the Alp summoning, at least until there is some official answer to the question.

 

I realize that this is not the only possible interpretation but it makes the most sense to me. Note that I *would* allow Misery to trigger, although the duel is not an action. That's not the literal interpretation but it makes sense to me, in accordance with Justin's blog article.

 

(Also, please note that I have been repeatedly reminded that Justin's blog is not an official ruling about anything. Citing it will not solve rules disputes with everyone.)

[Bengt]

There are lots of things in the game that tell you to resolve them after an Action, where the situation is not necessarily caused by an Action.

Really? Could you give some examples?

[mythicFOX]

IMO Misery isn't dependant on an action being taken;

 

 

When an enemy model within    6 of this model fails a Wp duel, it suffers 1 damage after resolving the current Action.

 

The common English reading of that sentence would be;  Cause, effect, timing.

 

I think you need to over-read the rule to get the interpretation that there has to be an action.  If the action were a requirement it would probably read more like;

 

After an action is resolved where an enemy model within   6 of this model failed a Wp duel, the enemy model suffers 1 damage.