Synergy- does it really matter?

[Oubliette of Horror]

As I have already said in this section myself and a couple of friends have decided to start playing Malifaux. It was a rocky start but we are getting there!

 

I have another question though;

 

I decided to start out playing with Pandora and the crew associated with her (the people in the no shelter here box). Now I am probably not using this crew to it's full potential, this stands to reason as someone new to the game, but I was wondering if it really matters who is in this crew from the Neverborn faction?

 

I seem to have been having some trouble getting Candy to do anything of much value. The sweets and sours thing never seems to come off the way I expected or more over just doesn't do anything. This may be because I am playing models that can reduce it's effectiveness (some burning guy from the guild who can't have his own burning thing used against him etc etc).

 

Someone mentioned in passing that I could switch out some of the people in the crew with other models; namely Tuco and Coppelius. So I have the question; do these guys work well with Pandora? And is there a limit on how many enforcers you can have in a crew? I would be dropping Candy to get these guys in, and potentially dropping sorrows and/ or Baby kade if needed (primarily because although I bought a nice Teddy model to support BK I have never managed to get him into a game due to soulstone cost...making it a bit of a waste of time).

 

If it helps I am getting the idea that predominantly Pandora and co are more geared at forcing others to take WP tests and making other models move when they don't want too, but would adding in Coppelius and/ or Tuco into the crew give Pandora some more muscle rather than  relying on (me TBH) Candy being within 3" of either the first or last model to move and then pulling off whatever she does.

 

Any advice would be greatly received, so thanks in advance.

 

I doubt that it will help in answering questions, but we (myself and 2 mates) would like to get more people in our local club (which could be described as a 40k club...yawn...because that appears to be all they play) into playing Malifaux, this would be so much easier if we knew what the hell we were doing or how to play our crews more effectively.

 

Anyway, thanks again

 

OoH

[rancor709]

No limit to the amount of enforcers you can have in a crew outside if said enforcer is rare 1 or not than you can only have one of that type. Like you can only ever have one coppelius on the table at anypoint but you could have 3 teddies and 1 coppelius no problem should you have the points or the desire. But you do have to remember the enforcers you have on the table the less minions your fielding which means if make them suffer is in the scheme pool you may be bleedign points to your opponent if you fail to include one minion.

 

Pandora's aura wants as many wp checks as possible to get maximum value, things like coppelius works absoluetly fine with as he brings with him Terror which means the opponent has to make a horror duel which if fail is a failed wp Test which also is a failed horror duel which sets off Coppelius aura. His attack doesn't affect wp but his ability to generate alps who also force a wp test synergize well with Pandora.

 

Tuco is just a great model and his inclusion with purpose in a neverborn force is rarely a bad decision.

 

Also great inclusions with Pandora are beckoners who attack the wp stat, and the always popular stitched together

[Gorbad]

Synergy matter, but it isn't the be all and end all of crew creation. Especially with Pandora I actually think that building a highly WP focused crew is a little bit of a trap as it leaves you with a very one-dimensional attack vector. I much prefer to have a couple of models around that can both function independently of Pandora and can attack something else than WP. Teddy is actually quite a good model for her as he gains benefits from failed Wp tests, but don't need them to be useful. But any Neverborn model have potential with Pandora, she really do benefit from a mixed crew.

As for Candy, I know she have a fan base but I never liked her. I never really got her to work for me and she is just a bit boring I think so I just don't use her. The starter box is thematic as much as anything, don't feel you have to run it. On fact out of that box I often only run a sorrow or two. The poltergeist maybe dependent on schemes (Primodial Magic is very good too) and Kade might or might not be there.

Also, there are no limit's to the number of enforcers or henchmen you can have in a crew. One master, max two mercenary models, but aside from that there aren't really any rules.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Some masters (and by extension crews) rely heavily on a synergistic trait, but many don't, and I personally try to keep a couple decent models with no particular synergy so I don't overspecialize.

[MasterDisaster]

In regards to Sweets and Sours there is a way you can force this. I believe it's the Incite action that gives out Mood Swings which allows you to decide which order the enemy can activate affected models. This can be really useful if you have it on multiple models because you can force a model near Candy to activate first causing them to be first in their crew and within 3" of Candy with decent positioning. 

 

This is synergy and it's very important to really get that extra mileage out of your crew. One model in particular I'd be looking at if I were playing Pandora is the Widow Weaver, she seems like she was purpose built for Pandora although she rocks with The Dreamer and Zoradia to a lesser extent. Sure some models don't need to synergize with each other. My Viks crews often include lots of models who are pretty much self reliant and require no synergy with the rest of the crew but other times I'll ensure the Sisters can work off each other. Synergy offers some great combos and it's worth taking the time to get to grips with them because they can be incredibly useful. 

 

In my experience the most deadly Pandora crews tend to have a 50/50 mix of Wp focused stuff and other models who benefit from Wp based effects but don't rely on them. A friend recently took Bishop with Pandora because he can choose to attack either Wp or Df making him really useful with their crew. It was a total blind side for me as I wasn't expecting it and when Bishop attacking Wp was beneficial he hammered home against the Wp but when it didn't really matter or wasn't beneficial he smashed his way through my Df. Bishop doesn't tend to be incredibly thematic with anyone and has little direct synergy with Pandora but he's versatile enough to be a great asset to the crew (if you don't mind paying that extra SS to hire him from the Outcast faction that is  )

[PraetorDragoon]

Masterdisaster, I think that is a good idea to look on synergy. Currently, I am a bit too focussed on having a good synergy, but as you said, that leaves it a bit one dimensional and makes it very crippeling when they take Rock for instance. (As I remember using my Paralyzed focussed crew against a Frozen Heart crew. Not fun)

 

Last time I played Pandora I took Mr. Graves. And he did well by pushing my slower guys around, pushing enemies away from my guys, and forcing lowish Wp duels. He didn't had heavy synergy, but was a great asset to have. 

 

So in the future, I might be looking more at things like these. Not heavy synergy, but more solid pieces in their own right that might help with the parts the rest of the crew has issues with.

[MasterDisaster]

I believe it was Gorbad and SpiralingCadaver who first mentioned the one dimensional nature of over specialization or total focus on synergy but I completely agree with them. By focusing directly on pure synergy although often provides very powerful combinations can also become extremely one dimensional and if you come against something that has hard counters to that play style you will find yourself in for one hell of an uphill struggle. Another downside to having these complicated of sometimes model reliant synergistic combos is that they require lots of parts to function, when one part is taken out the whole plan can fall apart and leave you struggling. 

 

This reminds of a game I was playing with Tara against Shenlong. My opponent was focusing heavily of pumping up his key models with the Defensive condition and while this caused issues for some of my crew (Killjoy and my Death Marshalls to be specific). I had other ways to counter his primary defenses. I chose to actively give his models Fast which in turn gave them a -2 Wp debuff from one of Tara's upgrades. This meant I could utilize Bishop to pound Shenlong into the dirt because I was targeting his Wp. This also made life easier in burying his models with Tara and the Void Wretches so he could have had Defensive +6 (Which he did at one point!) and I just buried them to remove them as a threat. There wasn't much my opponent could do to counter this because he had spent so much time and effort bolstering his Df and left his Wp wide open to be exploited. 

 

In my opinion a balanced crew covers as many bases as it can and usually this is achieved by forming synergies between certain models and having some others who are, for the most part, self reliant. They might get benefits from the other crew members but work equally well on their own. The Outcasts have many models like this. Hans is a great example. He is incredibly powerful on his own, he can sit back and shoot all day long causing problems for the enemy without any support, should he be given support then great he works even better but it's not required to make him a real problem. Convict Gunslingers, Ronin, Punk Zombies, The Illuminated, Death Marshalls are all great examples of models that don't really have much synergy with anything in particular (Maybe not so much The Illuminated). They are fantastic models in their own right and don't need anything to be great, when they do synergize with other models it just amplifies their already formidable abilities. 

 

I think it's important to understand the synergy in a crew and often capitalize on their strengths but relying on them all the time can be dangerous. A healthy balance is often the best way forward in my opinion. It's often very easy to get distracted by building a theme crew and expecting it to do well because you are taking models the fluff says should be amazing and yeah, often they work well together but some outside of the box thinking also goes a long way. 

[Oubliette of Horror]

Wow, thank you so much for this, everyone. I wasn't expecting so much detailed (and amazingly quick) advice.

 

This really helps allot because I was kind of worried that by steering away from the traditional synergy based crew that, should a more established player pitch up, they would raise an eyebrow, tutt under their breath and mumble something about clueless synergy ignoring noobs.

 

This is really useful and it means I can go away and really look at adding in more models to try and add a different dimension to the crew.

 

I was thinking of posting up some pictures of all these models when I have finished painting them, but am not really sure where to do this; blogs or galleries. The reason I say this is that (although I could be mistaken) galleries appears to be just that; a gallery of pictures and I am not sure how the blogs thing works as it looks (looks) like a one post thing. The reason I say this is because I am sure I could benefit from advice and comments on painting, more over need it, but I am not sure how that would work in one post threads/ galleries.

 

Thanks again for the advice, no doubt I will be back with more questions in a game or two! Such is the nature of new players

 

OoH

 

 

[StuffedKiwi]

Lots of good advice here, glad you found it helpful, OoH. One other thing I would add is that it's really helpful to think about the specific strategy and schemes for each game when you're putting together a crew, and that means you want a decent variety of models to choose from, when you're working out what you want to buy and paint. Are there lots of Interact-with-marker schemes in the mix? Then you might want to take Doppleganger (who can interact even when engaged) or Primordial Magic and Mr. Tannen (who can take away enemy models's ability to interact). Will you need to stand in the middle and tough it out in Turf War? Then you might want Waldgeist (armor+2, forest-summoning). Are you going for kill-heavy schemes and strategies (Reckoning, Assassinate, Make Them Suffer)? Then Nekima, Illuminated, Teddy & Kade are good options. And so on. Of course, all these models do more than one thing, so they can be useful in different ways, too. One of the things that the good players say here in the forums over and over is that it's not a good idea to go into a game with a fixed list in mind, before you know what the strategy and schemes are going to be. Which means, again, it's really helpful to have a pool of models available to chose from, and to have a good idea of what the specific roles of those models are. It can be a really good idea to try some games where you proxy models you don't yet own, to decide if you like the way they work, before you rush out and buy them. But in general, your plan to branch out from the starter-box is a good one, and you definitely don't want to be limited to only those models that have obvious 'synergy' with Pandora.

[ddot]

For Pandi, I would look at it like this:

 

"Does the model have actions which force Wp duels? What else does it do besides that?"

 

I've really fallen in love with stitched together for her. They have a Wp-based attack, and it has some card manipulation built in as a bonus. They also have two Df-based attacks, as well as Creepy Fog to obscure LoS. A  lot of tactical possibilities with them outside of the Wp duel+ card manipulator. Then again, sometimes you just need a heavy hitter or a speedster to accomplish other things.

 

Don't worry if Candy underperforms atm. It could be any number of factors making her less-than-stellar... bad luck, activating her too early or too late, trying it on less-than-ideal targets... play a few more games to figure out what works and what doesn't.