New Player Woes

[Iron Nerd]

Hello all, another new Malifaux player here!  A friend of mine has been sitting on several crew boxes for a while, and the other day we finally dove in to give it a try.  Despite really enjoying the game (I ordered the Colette box immediately after playing my first game), we've run into a big issue that I'd love to get some insight on:  Neither game has felt even remotely balanced.

 

First game was me using Seamus vs. his Lilith.  He started off and ran a Terror Tot forward to get started, then I proceeded to pull him across the board with my Belles and kill him off.  By turn 2, I'd created a Belle, and by turn 3, I had another.  It wasn't until he got Barbaros into my lines that he could do much of anything to stop me.  Full disclosure, it got late and we didn't finish the game, but he was getting annoyed as he felt there was little he could do.

 

Second game was me using Rasputina vs. his Tara.  Long story short, the tables had turned.  He buried an Ice Gamin first turn and proceeded to kill it with no range or LoS restrictions.  Then he did it to my Wendigo turn 2.  Then another Gamin turn 3.  I could do absolutely nothing to stop the burials.  Even when I got lucky enough to resist (or cheated...) the burial, he would just cast again.  By the end of turn 4 I had a buried Ice Golem and Rasputina, and he had his entire crew.

 

In both instances we dug into the rules and cards to see if we were doing something wrong, but couldn't find anything.  I don't think terrain quantity was the problem either.  I've played Infinity for some time, so I'm quite used to a board with loads of terrain.  I've heard that the game isn't really balanced at the 30 points we were playing, is that the issue?

 

To sum it up, I thoroughly enjoy the game, but so far I'm pretty apprehensive to dive in wholeheartedly.  Hopefully things turn around and I can learn to really love Malifaux!

[Ausplosions]

Sounds like not enough terrain. You should be playing with 35-50% of your table covered.

[Ausplosions]

Wait. I have no idea how he was burying things so well.

[Iron Nerd]

The majority of my models were WP 4.  His casts we're typically in the mid to upper teens, which was nigh impossible to defend against reliably.  Then I had to pass a TN 13 WP duel, which meant a 9 or more.  I probably dodged every other one, but considering his 3 AP and two activations per turn out of Tara... my luck couldn't keep up.

[Ausplosions]

Yeah. You were just very unlucky. Nothing wrong with that. Sometimes it happens.

[Ausplosions]

Wait how did he bury the Ice Golem AND Rasputina?

Tara can only have one model buried at a time with this abilities...

[DocSchlock]

The Glimpse Trigger that buries in Tara's crew is one model buried, period, PERIOD. Unless you had two Death Marshals, I'm not sure (as Ausplosions said) how both the Golem and Rasputina were buried at the same time.

Malifaux, like a lot of games, needs terrain. Also, were you guys playing with a Strategy and Schemes? There's absolutely no reason to play a game without those -- they keep the game balanced, otherwise is just becomes pointless.

To be completely fair, killing Terror Tots and Ice Gamin isn't an incredible feat by any means. Tots are Scheme Runners, and Ice Gamin are there to be bombs / cast points for Rasputina.

[Bacms]

To be honest it just a seems a first play syndrome which malifaux suffers quite a lot with. It is one of those games that really gain from the interactions between models and often if some tricks are easier/more obvious it will tend to feel overpowered. There is also a fair bit of paper/rock/scissors and with the absence of one good list for everything it is normal to play a few games feeling there isn't nothing you can do. Then you may see a battle report or read a tactics thread and realize there is a lot more things you can which you didn't even realize.So my advice is read the pullmyfinger wiki and play a few more games. The unbalance feeling will quickly disappear 

[dgraz]

As Bacms said. There is also a decent learning curve in this game......not knowing what the crews can do can make things seem unbalanced. Many newer players have this issue....the fact that it's two of you that are brand new can exacerbate the problem........even experienced players that face a new crew that haven't played against can have some 'WTF' moments until they figure out this new puzzle.

[Iron Nerd]

I read my OP again, and I worded that poorly.  At the end of the game, the Ice Golem was buried and Rasputina was the only other thing I had alive.  Also, I *really* don't think terrain is the issue.  Like I said, I'm an Infinity player, and if you're familiar with the terrain requirements of that game, you'll understand that I've got a heck of a terrain collection.

 

So far I'm chalking it up to what Bacms and Dgraz said above, I think we're just too new to the game and not really sure how best to approach problems yet.  I *think* one of the local shops has a Malifaux league going, I might try to see if I can get a game in with someone who's played a while longer than we have.

 

We were playing with Strategies/Schemes, but even with those he had me dead to rights.  He was out-activating me on turn 1 (due to having a buried Gamin, and Tara's double activation thing), and it only got progressively worse from there. I picked up 2 VP with Framed for Murder, but didn't have enough models alive to drop scheme markers for A Line in the Sand.

 

Anyway, still really enjoying the game, just wish we'd had a good close game with some sort of tense moment.  Hasn't happened yet...

[some_scrub]

Welcome to Malifaux! I'm really glad you enjoyed your first games even though there were some hiccups. The pointers everyone else have given all seem spot on. I just wanted to call attention to one thing that might have gotten lost among all the other advice:

 

Also, were you guys playing with a Strategy and Schemes? There's absolutely no reason to play a game without those -- they keep the game balanced, otherwise is just becomes pointless.

 

I just want to echo this point because I think it's probably the most important part of the Malifaux learning curve. The biggest distinction between Malifaux and other minis games is that killing things is not an important goal in and of itself. The only things that matters are scoring on your Schemes and Strategies and preventing your opponent from doing so. Killing opposing models just happens to be a surefire way of stopping your opponent from achieving most schemes and strats. Killing things in Malifaux is primarily a way of playing defense, not offense.

 

Balance in Malifaux means that there's a way to build an effective crew for any strategy/scheme pool using any master. This doesn't mean that different crews are equally good at killing things (and that's ok!) I think you'll find Collette is a very fun, very capable master who doesn't need to kill much to score a lot of points. It also means that the game is balanced around having a bit of flexibility in your model pool to tailor your list to the strategy / schemes. You definitely don't need to go out and buy every model in a faction to have a great time, but I think you'll find the game will feel a lot more balanced when you have a few more models on the table and a couple of models that you can leave on the sidelines because this isn't the right strat + scheme pool for them.

 

Glad you're still really enjoying the game, though. That's the most important thing.

[DocSchlock]

It'll happen. As players get better and know what things do, games get a lot closer. Big tip: if your opening hand is all below 9, use a soulstone to draw 2 more cards and discard two cards. A lot of beginning players don't yet understand how important having a decent hand is, esp against Rotten Belles.

If you play Infinity, it's like the first time someone Airdrops on you: you get melted because you didn't expect it and you didn't think of dealing with it (stupid Diomedes).

When I was starting out in Malifaux, I accidentally got a friend who started with me to quit the game. He took Pandora, while I had the Ortegas. He dedicated his entire crew to Paralyzing Papa Loco, which he did. Then I used Perdita to explode Papa Loco anyway, twice. 17 damage to his entire crew. He quit pretty much immediately, but after playing a few games over the next few months, he's come back after realizing it was his tactical error combined with a lack of rules understanding. We've had a ton of amazing, close match-ups since, though he has decided that Pandora is not his preferred playstyle and switched over to Lilith and Von Schill.

[Uktena]

How many SS were you playing at?

[Iron Nerd]

Both games were played at 30ss, just the "starter" boxes with a couple upgrades.

[Mason]

Since Tara has Heartless and is difficult to target with spells, it's usually best for Rasputina to just shoot everything but Tara and leave Tara for the rest of her crew. to deal with.  December's Curse is a Ca action, so it'll eat through the Nothing Beast and her Void Wretches pretty quickly, especially if you hit them at the start of the turn when their defense is very low. 

 

Otherwise, consider which schemes you're taking.  Line in the Sand is a pretty good objective for Tara, given her two activations and her incorporeal models being able to move freely through terrain, but it's not very good for Rasputina, who, like the Ice Golem, is pretty slow.  If you get something like Assassinate or Make Them Suffer, though, she's a goddess on the table.

 

Gamin are going to have a problem with Pull the Void, however, so if you're having problems with your Gamin getting buried it might be best to just take the point of damage and Slow (or Fast) condition and then save your high cards in hand to make the Glimpse the Void flip, as that's always going to be against a fixed TN of 13, unlike the variable (and generally much higher) TN that Tara is throwing at you with Pull the Void.  And remember that any model Tara buries with Glimpse is unburied as soon as anything on the table dies; if Rasputina nukes something to death, any model buried via Glimpse will fall back out. 

 

 

Semi-Advanced Tip: If you haven't noticed it yet, take a look at the Focus action as well.  By spending an AP, you can give Rasputina a   to her next attack and damage flip, which makes her December's Curse very scary.  Even if you only beat your opponent's flip by a single point, the   from the Focus condition cancels out the on the damage from the duel total, giving you a straight flip.  Rasputina likes straight damage flips because she can cheat in a high card to deal a lot of damage to an enemy model and drop some blasts on anything around it.  

 

 

Good luck, welcome to the game, and let us know how future games go. 

[Uktena]

Both games were played at 30ss, just the "starter" boxes with a couple upgrades.

Cool. I don't want you to feel like I'm making an excuse or being defensive, but things really were balanced for 50SS. The lower the stones, the higher the potential for swingy gaming. Less is playable, but try smaller games with henchmen leading the crews. That might help. Also, Heck yeah Infinity!

[Dolomyte]

There is another thread that your friend started in the outcast forum that you should read, we discussed it a lot in detail there. Couple of things to keep in mind, on the first turn you should activate the stuff you were not throwing before doing the golem and throwing up that gamin, those three activations will have caused him to use tara (he will use her first) and three other things before she is in range to cast pull the void on the thrown model. So even if she does target it, it won't immediately get beat down that turn.

 

Secondly. Rasputina's attacks are all CA's, so they ignore the incorporeal of the NB and the wretches. Kill those first before putting any attacks at Tara. Id honestly probably not even throw the gaming up, and move everything up together. Tara does not really have a huge AOE attack that you need to be really spread out for, claim the center of the table and then spread out once you've thinned his herd. (she would need to be in range of your attacks to bury your stuff, essentially)

 

Save 9+ or 8+ cards for resisting the trigger, dont bother trying to stop the attack. don't be afraid to spend soulstones to draw more cards and try to get a better hand if you dont have any resist cards (more for the golem then gamin. a buried gamin is not that big a deal).

 

and then go from there.

[Iron Nerd]

Yeah, I saw that he posted and read through it.  A lot of good advice, and I think I could do much better if we did it again.  Honestly, I didn't even know that the Focus action was a thing.  Also don't really have a handle on when to use soulstones yet.  My hands were pretty poor, in hindsight I would have used them to draw some cards.  I'm sure it's doable, but it's just tough learning this game from square one without having someone around to teach us.  

[Dolomyte]

What area do you guys live in? While I myself am not a henchmen, I travel far and wide, so I might know one in your area.

[Iron Nerd]

We are in Omaha, Nebraska.  Not sure about henchman, but I've only heard about one local store that has players with any regularity, and they play when my schedule doesn't allow me to join them.

[jonahmaul]

I was going to suggest seeing if you had a Henchman in your area too.  Or at least an experienced player who wouldn't mind running through a game with you guys.  I've had a couple of games of Malifaux with a Henchman around (Rodent Mastermind when I was in Cambridge and whatever Dominic in Cardiff's username is) and it is very helpful as they know the rules inside out and can also give advice regarding how and why to do certain things.  I believe 30SS or less games are only supposed to be led by Henchmen (Malifaux ones, not real life ones!) too (can't remember the cut off and don't have the book to hand) so having Masters in such small games could certainly throw the balance out a bit.

[DocSchlock]

24 and below = Henchman
25 to 40 = Henchman or Master
41+ = Master

EDIT: After playing my first 50SS game recently, the higher stones you go, the more balanced the game is. You just have a ton of choices and a much better chance of surviving losing specific pieces. It really opens everything up and also dampens the power of strong small game abilities.

[Mason]

We are in Omaha, Nebraska.  Not sure about henchman, but I've only heard about one local store that has players with any regularity, and they play when my schedule doesn't allow me to join them.

 

I'm up in Sioux Falls, SD, if you ever get up this way.  We've usually got Malifaux of some sort going on at Universal Bits and Games on the weekends, and I'm always willing to help newer players get the hang of the game. 

[Uktena]

24 and below = Henchman

25 to 40 = Henchman or Master

41+ = Master

EDIT: After playing my first 50SS game recently, the higher stones you go, the more balanced the game is. You just have a ton of choices and a much better chance of surviving losing specific pieces. It really opens everything up and also dampens the power of strong small game abilities.

 

Right.  I'd say always use a full crew box to teach someone how the game works, but gaming in general is better off leaving Masters out if you plan to dip down in Soulstones.

[Jonathan Pickles]

50 is more balanced than lower especially in something like Reconnoiter where a small numerical imbalance can really count. Summoning (like with Seamus) is less overwhelming too in bigger games.

 

I have found that one realy key aspect is learning which schemes are achievable for your list. In fact the game is almost too balanced as if both sides pick their optimum schemes & play to the strategy is can be had to stop them scoring  All my recent games against my regular opponent have been one pointers or draws, & the lost points have come from bad scheme picks (I hate revealing them) & a couple of clear bad plays.