2nd Ed model only in starter boxes?

[Ausplosions]

If you don't need the new M2E crew box only models then what is the issue with them only being available in crew boxes?

[Dolomyte]

We want them.

[Ausplosions]

Then, as per successful business. They provide them. In a box. With other models. And you choose whether or not to buy them.

More new players will buy the boxes than old. But more people will buy the boxes than not.

[valhallan42nd]

Babaros has limited appeal outside of a Lilith crew. There would be limited appeal or reason to make an entire sku and box for that one rare one model. There might be limited demand for such a product at this time, but moving forward, that demand would sharply taper. Why does it make good business sense to make a box for a limited appeal model?

[Dolomyte]

I guess they should make no rare 1 models then. because eventually people will buy them and demand will sharply taper?

 

Also, Barbaros has almost no synergy with Lilith. There is nothing he offers that buffs or requires Nephilim. Nekima, Snow Storm, etc are all far more limited to their crews / casters then Barbaros (he's really really good with Pandora, he is super good at keeping her totem alive, and she really likes her totem to be alive)

 

I'm out of the argument at this point guys. I agree with you on totems, IE the steam trunk for Von Schill. only he can use it. I disagree with you on henchmen, they can lead crews and work for any other faction master. There is no difference between them and any other rare 1, they should get their own box. This argument will be brought up by new or the same people every time it happens. (Hannah if she is in his box might be a good example, because not only is she a henchmen, she is a mercenary who is fantastic with a wide variety of crews)

 

Your argument boils down to Wyrd is serving some, maybe even most of their players. My argument boils down to you can serve all of them and make profit while doing so.

 

We agree to disagree.

[NoHero]

Not sure who this is directed at but I find it rather insulting regardless, especially if it was at me. As for "support Wyrd by buying their product", well I have nearly every model from 1st edition do I have a voice now?

 

Repurchasing all those crews for the handful of models that are new is an unrealistic expectation any way you look at it. This isn't a "cheap" thing this is a "can you throw the guys who got you here a bone?" thing. Many of the population that are asking for the independent blisters have contributed substantially (both in product purchases and time spent promoting their products) to the success of the company (making a 2nd edition even possible).

 

 

It wasn't not directed at you or anyone in particular. It is just frustrating to see so many people on the forum saying "give me this plastic now", "stop doing this", etc. No one cuts the company any slack despite them giving their best efforts. Yes they have had delays and product being promised not delivered, but that happens sometimes. They at least kept us informed and are apologetic unlike some companies (not dropping names). I owned many wave 1 metals as well and went ahead and got the M2E models because if I don't need more of the same models I needed particular models, not to mention I get a choice of what sculpt to use. I think if a person is willing to buy an alt scupt of a model or nightmare edition, then they should be fine buying the new M2E box. Think of it as a new models and then some alternate sculpts. When it comes down to it, it isn't that much money; the models in a starter set average 8$ or less. This isn't that expensive of a miniature game, so dropping 40$ retail box isn't much. Plus if you want them to do blisters (if they do) then they have to be successful, which is gonna be hard if their own fanbase won't buy new product.

[NoHero]

Oh, I'm so sorry sir. I did not know it's Member's only club. Pardon me. Let me get my pauper-ass out of the door to not break the sacrosanct of your hobby.

 

The hobby IS fairly cheap. Compare it to real hobbies, like car renovation, skiing or even bicycle riding, it's very cheap. It still doesn't mean I enjoy wasting money on product I don't need to get 1 I want. I'm not a charity.

 

 

By that concept they would have to cater to every individual person. I don't play neverborn, so I should demand they cut out the Neverborn section of the book and print my own copy. They are doing the boxes that way to reach/please the largest number of people without having to do it multiple ways. They sell the executioner in boxes of 2. I already have one, so should they repackage them individually for everyone? No it isn't cost effective, I will buy the box and have 3 and I can do with it as I please.

 

If it is a cheap hobby then drop some money and buy the box. It's not charity when you get a product in return. Think of the number of people in the world that play tabletop games, then think of the number of people that play malifaux, this isn't a large audience and the company does have the money to constanly make molds or package things the way every single person wants. Buy the box and use everything but Barbaros as a demo crew, make the other models prizes for a store tournament, trade models with other people in your gaming group, sell them online. There are a lot of ways to feel like you made a good purchase with the box.

[Bengt]

My argument boils down to you can serve all of them and make profit while doing so.

You don't know that. And even if we hypothesize that making Barbaros available separately will in fact be profitable, spending the same man hours doing something else may be more profitable, i.e. opportunity cost. Of course Wyrd can't be sure what will make them the most money either, but they do have a lot more metrics than you or me.

[Omenbringer]

Out of morbid curiosity I have a few simple questions for those that are so vehemently opposing this simple request. What does it matter to you if Wyrd were to provide the Barbaros (or any other model that might fall into this category) model via their online store individually? What dog do you all have in the fight aside from threads like these ceasing to pop up every other month? How will producing this model negatively impact the community or company, especially if it resulted in returning players from last edition or increasing volume of sales for that model (and aiding in recouping the initial investment for the plastic molds)?

 

Honestly I see only good coming out of this, especially if this was facilitated via their webstore.

 

 

They at least kept us informed and are apologetic unlike some companies (not dropping names).

I take it you haven't participated in their crowd sourcing efforts? Communication from Wyrd has been rather sparse and often rather terse (sometimes understandably so) sense M2e went live.

 

I have been a fan (sometimes even a "Fanboy") of the company for longer than most and would count many of them as friends however that doesn't mean that I blindly fawn over their every decision and act as if their crap smells like roses.

 

 

When it comes down to it, it isn't that much money; the models in a starter set average 8$ or less. This isn't that expensive of a miniature game, so dropping 40$ retail box isn't much. Plus if you want them to do blisters (if they do) then they have to be successful, which is gonna be hard if their own fanbase won't buy new product.

It isn't really $8.00 for that individual model, it is the crew box cost (typically $40.00) for that one individual model minus what ever you can get for the undesired models (which again the secondary market wont need or want since they can already get them and Barbaros in a crew box even at a substantial discount).

 

A person in this category doesn't need anymore Terror Tots, they dont need or want another Lilith, there is no benefit to owning another Cherub, the only model that has any value to some one with the old metal Lilith crew box is Barbaros. Malifaux has always been deceptively inexpensive, a crew box is rarely competitive on its own and generally needs to be augmented with additional purchases (understandable business practice). For a player with multiple crews from multiple factions (a large portion of the community) the prospect of re-purchasing entire crew boxes for individual models is not realistic.

 

There is a "fan base" that wants these models individually and that would increase sales of those models for Wyrd rather than the alternatives of converting or not purchasing (neither of which benefits Wyrd).  Though Wyrd would love if all their models were successful the truth is there are going to be models that are unsuccessful (and languish on shelves). Any method of increasing sales of other models makes good business sense (especially when considering that recovering the increased cost of plastic molds is tied to both the decreased cost of the material and the number of units sold with profits not seen until you hit the magic number).

 

The population that wants these models aren't asking for a free handout or demanding anything. They are civilly requesting an opportunity to give Wyrd money for a desired product (no different from players asking for their favorite master to be released earlier in the production cycle).

 

I will however be bowing out of this one since the request has been made (yet again) and this looks to be heading down the inevitable path. I trust Wyrd has been following this one and they will either reaffirm their decision or announce a change.

[Bengt]

Out of morbid curiosity I have a few simple questions for those that are so vehemently opposing this simple request. What does it matter to you if Wyrd were to provide the Barbaros (or any other model that might fall into this category) model via their online store individually? What dog do you all have in the fight aside from threads like these ceasing to pop up every other month? How will producing this model negatively impact the community or company, especially if it resulted in returning players from last edition or increasing volume of sales for that model (and aiding in recouping the initial investment for the plastic molds)?

I don't really care one way or the other if Barbie gets released separately, I got involved in this thread because some people seems to think releasing him would be so incredibly simple if Wyrd just wasn't so mean and contrary. I've stated some possible reasons for it not being that simple. We don't know that Barbie is gated in the existing mould, it is possible that only the Tots are gated, or that there is a separate mould with just the Tots and nothing is gated. So the start up costs are unknown to us. In either case there will always be opportunity cost, and Wyrd obviously doesn't have a flawlessly running production yet, if the delays are anything to go by.

 

So let me ask you a question in response. If Nathan thought Barbie (or Taelor, or Joss, or whatever model) would make bank, don't you think he would release them separately? 

 

Footnote: I got my miniature gaming start with Games Workshop way back in the early 90s and still bought some of their models as late as 3-4 years ago. They always had gaps in their product lines, and I mean no model what so ever, not just inconveniently available. So I expect there to be gaps in everyone's product lines, it's the normal state of affairs, you roll with it. So some of you come across as very entitled to me, which may colour my responses.

[Rekeiji]

I knew I'd read something appropriate to this argument. Here's a game shop owner explaining SKU creep: 

 

http://mightymeep.com/news/quest-for-fun-miniature-sku-creep/992

[Lupercal]

I knew I'd read something appropriate to this argument. Here's a game shop owner explaining SKU creep: 

 

http://mightymeep.com/news/quest-for-fun-miniature-sku-creep/992

 

Lol wow holy shit that is one of the 4 stores I mentioned in my area and the one that I play Malifaux at now for m2e.  I appreciate this link as I wasnt really sure of the arguments for and against the SKU line not being a store owner myself. 

 

But really the SKU reason is just the official line Wyrd gave, if the reason was really something like "We are biting off more than we can chew with m2e and want to reduce the number of box sets and the amount of work.", do you think that they would come out and say something like that?  The SKU thing is the official line but I don't believe for a second that this issue is that simple and that that is all that went into the decision to cut back on kits in m2e.

[Dolomyte]

A couple of off issue things I wanted to address from your post Lupercal.

 

1. We have answered why we feel they should. You disagree with those reasons, but they are still incredibly valid. Using your same argument, you don't know that they cannot, you do not know that it would not be profitable, nor do you know what their margins are. We are two sides of a coin. One side is making a request, the other side is calling us extremely entitled crybabies for doing so. (I've never called you a name, and I re-read the post and did not see where anyone called you a curse word fan boy. We are all wyrd fan boys. or we would not be on their forums.

 

2. The question posed was why do you care so much if we ask wyrd for the models? Do you think we are damaging the company making requests to wyrd?

 

3. I stated earlier the production issues are a bigger problem. however, your talking about its profitability, feasibility, as if you know for a fact that it is not. I'm not saying you are wrong, I am saying there is a chance you are wrong, wyrd has never said it would not make them money, they have never said they can't gate off the mold. But again, if that's the case, wyrd can state that and I'm pretty sure we'd all just gladly accept it. you, nor I, are in the position to argue the feasibility of the request. This thread has become whether or not as players we have the right to make it. Which, being that we spend money on the product, we most surely do.

 

4. For a tournament competitive malifaux army, using gaining grounds and 50 points, you really should have every model or close to every model in the faction. This way based on the schemes and strategy, as well as your opponents faction. you can build your crew to maximum effectiveness. A person with all the models will do better in a tournament then a person with a single crew. At least according to gaining grounds. So yes, Warmachine and Malifaux are probably similar in cost for competitive play. Also, you can play starter box games in warmachine. its called mangled metal. The entry cost is $50. so about the same as a crew box.

 

5. We are not condemning their policy, we are questioning it. Also, your talking like we are adding 400 Skus. At this point it's Barbaros, Hannah, Vasilia, The Firestarter, Captain Dashel. So five models, I guess that's a bunch. I may be missing some where the old starter boxes do not have the new henchmen, and if so feel free to point out how wrong I am. (I do not think totem's should be made separately. as stated before they can be used with one person. Henchmen can be used with everyone

 

6. As you said, its laughable to think you know for sure its not a simple process. You do not know. neither do we. Your using the same assumptive logic that we are.

 

7. I'm glad we are fairly entitle whiners. But it is a problem that exists. It might not be a problem for you, but it is for us, otherwise this thread would not continue to resurface by different people. Your situation is not the only one out there. We don't discount yours, don't discount ours. 

 

8. New players very well may need a separate barbaros. That's a false argument. There very well are neverborn players who have no interest in Lilith or Terror Tots, but want barbaros for their pandora crew, or zoraida crew. etc. etc. You 

 

9. How do you know how successful wyrd is or is not. They are successful enough to put out 400 board games and eventually a roleplaying game, they were successful enough to put out a brand new second edition. You don't know their financials. Nor do I.

 

10. None of us are attacking wyrd. So I don't know why you feel the need to defend them.

 

Hopefully that gave you the responses to your points that you desired.

[Lupercal]

A couple of off issue things I wanted to address from your post Lupercal.

 

1. We have answered why we feel they should. You disagree with those reasons, but they are still incredibly valid. Using your same argument, you don't know that they cannot, you do not know that it would not be profitable, nor do you know what their margins are. We are two sides of a coin. One side is making a request, the other side is calling us extremely entitled crybabies for doing so. (I've never called you a name, and I re-read the post and did not see where anyone called you a curse word fan boy. We are all wyrd fan boys. or we would not be on their forums.

 

2. The question posed was why do you care so much if we ask wyrd for the models? Do you think we are damaging the company making requests to wyrd?

 

3. I stated earlier the production issues are a bigger problem. however, your talking about its profitability, feasibility, as if you know for a fact that it is not. I'm not saying you are wrong, I am saying there is a chance you are wrong, wyrd has never said it would not make them money, they have never said they can't gate off the mold. But again, if that's the case, wyrd can state that and I'm pretty sure we'd all just gladly accept it. you, nor I, are in the position to argue the feasibility of the request. This thread has become whether or not as players we have the right to make it. Which, being that we spend money on the product, we most surely do.

 

4. For a tournament competitive malifaux army, using gaining grounds and 50 points, you really should have every model or close to every model in the faction. This way based on the schemes and strategy, as well as your opponents faction. you can build your crew to maximum effectiveness. A person with all the models will do better in a tournament then a person with a single crew. At least according to gaining grounds. So yes, Warmachine and Malifaux are probably similar in cost for competitive play. Also, you can play starter box games in warmachine. its called mangled metal. The entry cost is $50. so about the same as a crew box.

 

5. We are not condemning their policy, we are questioning it. Also, your talking like we are adding 400 Skus. At this point it's Barbaros, Hannah, Vasilia, The Firestarter, Captain Dashel. So five models, I guess that's a bunch. I may be missing some where the old starter boxes do not have the new henchmen, and if so feel free to point out how wrong I am. (I do not think totem's should be made separately. as stated before they can be used with one person. Henchmen can be used with everyone

 

6. As you said, its laughable to think you know for sure its not a simple process. You do not know. neither do we. Your using the same assumptive logic that we are.

 

7. I'm glad we are fairly entitle whiners. But it is a problem that exists. It might not be a problem for you, but it is for us, otherwise this thread would not continue to resurface by different people. Your situation is not the only one out there. We don't discount yours, don't discount ours. 

 

8. New players very well may need a separate barbaros. That's a false argument. There very well are neverborn players who have no interest in Lilith or Terror Tots, but want barbaros for their pandora crew, or zoraida crew. etc. etc. You 

 

9. How do you know how successful wyrd is or is not. They are successful enough to put out 400 board games and eventually a roleplaying game, they were successful enough to put out a brand new second edition. You don't know their financials. Nor do I.

 

10. None of us are attacking wyrd. So I don't know why you feel the need to defend them.

 

Hopefully that gave you the responses to your points that you desired.

 

1. I disagree that they are two sides of the same coin and argue that if you can't do something because of practical reasons then whether or not you should is irrelevant.  I also think you are missing something in that I do agree with you that the 5 models you mentioned especially should be separate, and that someone made a mistake in the crusade to cut down on SKUs and box numbers.  I just disagree with you about how easy it would be to fix it at this point and at the same time keep everything else rolling smoothly enough to keep everyone happy.

 

2. I think none of us care if you ask the question, as evidenced by the earlier posts in this thread, but I think the way in which some people have asked and things that have been said that caused us to take more issue with it than anything. 

 

3.I think the issue here is that my posts were largely meant to be in response to other posts.  I have not stated that anything I said is fact.  I am making arguments that I think could poke holes in other arguments made or make people think about the fact that this is more than just a simple request if you are talking about more than just Barbaros.  Its not about whether or not you have the right to ask, of course you do.  But some of the posts here definitely involved more than just asking if/when Wyrd could make 5 models separately.  My point is not that it is not feasible to make the models.  My point was (same as yours) that it COULD be unfeasible to make the models or not, but that was just being made in response to other posts.  The underlying issue of Wyrd already being behind with production is the real reason I think it is silly to continually ask for these models separately, especially as they have said they don't intend to soon.

 

4. I have to say if you are going to base your assumption on owning an entire faction of Malifaux to go to a tournament then you need at least 3 lists with character restrictions for a PP game army to compare as what you need to buy to competitively play.  I would argue that mangled metal/battle box play is a completely different beast from regular play in a way that Malifaux crew box matchups are not.  Not that a small Malifaux game is exactly like a large one but it is closer to it than mangled metal is to a real game of Warmahordes.  I would also argue that you get a lot more buying an entire faction of Malifaux than you do in 3 lists of Warmahordes and I am fairly sure an entire faction of PP minis would be a lot more than a faction of Malifaux in terms of monetary price(though it might be larger?).  I accept that most of this is my personal opinion and it is like comparing apples to oranges but in general my point is Malifaux is a cheap mini game.  Arguing about which mini game is the cheapest is silly anyway as miniature wargaming is not a cheap hobby.  Earlier in the thread this point was adressed poorly I think, it may not be the most expensive hobby but miniature wargaming is by no means cheap. 

 

 

5. The more vitriolic points of my post were aimed at Omenbringer, who did seem to me like he was condemning the policy rather than questioning it, though that may be a bit of a dramatic wording.  The problem is that we have all already agreed that they should have made certain models separately, namely those that didn't exist before in metal.  Another side of this is models like the Coryphee that did exist in metal but are selling out quickly, hopefully their plastics get pushed up but who knows how Wyrd handles its scheduling.  I don't think 5 SKUs is so much if it makes a lot more players happy, but I do think it is a decent amount more work if not a lot of it to separate them out, produce, package, and distribute them now, and I think the main point here is the production issues that currently exist.  They are already a month behind and the models are in circulation, even if you can't get them separately (yet?), even if they are worth it in every respect to produce I think it would still be silly to release them before something like Shenlong or whatever other models that don't exist at all metal or otherwise, but its Wyrds schedule and I am sure we would all do it differently if we were in charge.  We have agreed they handle the late releases poorly.  That doesn't change the fact that asking more from them when they are obviously behind is silly. 

 

6. I think that most of my statements have been too general and that has caused problems.  But this particular statement I will stand by.  I do think it is laughable to think that it is a simple request to ask that a company change its production schedule, package their models differently, and distribute things they were not intending to.  I think that it might be a reasonable request from many viewpoints, and may make sense in the future.  But it is not simple.

 

7.  Again I should have been less general I will man up and call out a name the primary one who came off as entitled was Omenbringer and most of the discussion has been fairly reasonable.  But it does come off that way when we seem to agree about whether or not it is a good idea to produce these models separately but some of us just seem to understand that it is unlikely or unfeasible for them to change their current schedule if they have already said they don't intend to produce them and are struggling to meet release dates, while some of us seem to want to repeat over and over again reasons they SHOULD do it.

 

8.  I agree that this is possible and I did not mean to imply that it was impossible with my post.  I merely meant to say that from the standpoint of a company attempting to cut down on number of kits and amount of work to get every model in plastic, sacrificing the ability to make those neverborn players who don't want to get a whole crew for one model happy might give them the ability to make some boxed set from some other faction come out sooner and get more new players or make some old players who don't have a crew happy.  Everyone has also ignored the fact that as pointed out, it is a perfectly valid business strategy to force you to buy another crew to get a model, even if that is (hopefully) not the primary goal it benefits Wyrd and causes the person hopefully to become more invested in the game and possibly try out new masters.

 

9. I know that miniatures games are a more expensive thing to produce and distribute than board games and that they are a totally different beast because of the way the business model is to get a customer hooked into an army or faction or leader so they will continue to buy models to support that theme/army.  I thought it was common knowledge that Wyrd made the vast majority of its money in Malifaux.  I don't need to know their financials to know that.  And I don't think that financial limitations are at all the only limitations on creating and distributing a product.  All of this misses the point I was trying to make that you responded to, which is that we all agree it would be nice if they made these models seprately but asking for them to do this and at the same time having a fit about the promised production schedule being behind is silly. 

 

10.  If nobody on our side posted in this thread it would be a bunch of people agreeing that Wyrd should listen to them and make more models separately.  I think this is a silly notion and at the very least want to see a thread with discussion about why or why not it might make sense for them to do it now, rather than why it might make sense for them to do it in general. 

 

 

I do actually appreciate your responses to my points even if we disagree in places.  I apologize for being so general in my mild insults but you have to admit that the things said (especially by Omen) on your side were not quite as bland as you make them out to be. 

 

Edited for clarity.

[Justin]

Nothing is ever as simple as it seems from the outside.

Wyrd doesn't just need to keep customers happy, but retailers and distributors as well. And for them SKU creep on our part is a major issue. Definitely read this http://blackdiamondgames.blogspot.com/2014/02/miniature-sku-creep-tradecraft.html?m=1 

 

Piecing out individual models drastically increases our SKUs. Additionally, we did that with first edition, and when they were models which you could only take one of and they were also included in a box set, they just sat on shelves. SKU creep is bad. SKU creep on products which don't move is worse. While we understand that players want individual models, it is a huge burden on stores, and they are our customers just as much as you are. It's not that we don't care, just that we can't make everyone happy.

And while simply adding things exclusively to our web store would avoid that, I doubt that would go over very well with them either (and understandably so). I attend GAMMA every year and field questions directly from retailers and, other than the basic questions, the most common ones are about our online Gen Con sales. If we were to do exclusive online sales year round, well, GAMMA would be a much less happy place for me. We need to respect the needs of the people selling our products.

 

As for the complaint that we have added accessory products such as fate decks and base inserts to our line and that proves we don't really care about SKU creep, that is not looking at the whole picture. SKU creep is an issue for stores because they measure Malifaux as one product in terms of turn rates. They do this because, to get the best sales out of it, they need all or most of the line. If you went to your local store and they only carried two box sets, neither of which you play, would you bother to special order what you needed? Maybe. But most people would go to the store 10 minutes away which had more options, or order online. This means the best plan for stores is to carry a LOT of Malifaux SKUs, or none. Clearly, none is not very appealing to us. So we try to make carrying as many of our SKUs as possible as easy as possible. Fate decks and colored bases don't really work like this. They are accessory products carried by the store separately from Malifaux and their turn rates are measured on an individual basis. In other words, if red bases aren't selling, the store can just drop them and still carry Malifaux. If Guild SKUs aren't selling, they aren't going to just stop selling Guild models, they will likely drop the entire line.

That isn't even touching production issues, of which I'm basically ignorant.

And, ultimately, this isn't my decision. I have no authority here. Maybe Nathan will see this and agree with you. I can't speak for anyone but myself; just trying to give you guys insight on a decision that is a lot more complex than it first seems.

Anyway, getting reports on this thread, so locking. Feel free to start a new one.