Help me out with Von Schill

[Seregon]

In reply to the counter thingie, it's not mandatory to pick a Freikorps crew if you have Von Schill as a leader. If you happen to know that the opponent is picking Kirai then, apart from the Librarian, Vanessa would be a solid choice to pick, as is Taelor and possibly the Nothing Beast.

[Kadeton]

I'm really hoping that isn't part of the rules for next year.  It's a really odd addition that I felt skewed the match ups a bit too much in some pairings.

I think it would be a perfectly reasonable option if all Masters were able to pursue multiple effective paths, but the game currently has a state where some crews are rock/paper/scissors and others are generalists, which creates unfair situations. I'm hoping as we see more releases and more upgrades down the track, that will even out a lot more.

A limited hiring pool is a safer option in the short term (in my opinion), though it's more work for organizers.

[Kadeton]

In reply to the counter thingie, it's not mandatory to pick a Freikorps crew if you have Von Schill as a leader. If you happen to know that the opponent is picking Kirai then, apart from the Librarian, Vanessa would be a solid choice to pick, as is Taelor and possibly the Nothing Beast.

Perfectly true, of course, but I can't help but feel that Von Schill brings almost nothing to the game other than his Friekorps synergy. By giving that up, you're just playing with a different kind of disadvantage (albeit a less severe one than using mostly Friekorps against Kirai). You could instead choose any other Outcast and get more value.

[Seregon]

Perfectly true, of course, but I can't help but feel that Von Schill brings almost nothing to the game other than his Friekorps synergy. By giving that up, you're just playing with a different kind of disadvantage (albeit a less severe one than using mostly Friekorps against Kirai). You could instead choose any other Outcast and get more value.

Well, you can also see it in such a way that apart from his HtK and Wp bubble, he doesn't necessarily bring anything even to his Freikorps friends. He's perfectly capable of doing stuff by himself after all.

[jonahmaul]

Why is Kirai such a bad match up for Freikorps?  I play both these crews (or will do when my Gencon order turns up with Kirai!) so would like to hear thoughts on why they don't match up well to think about other crews/Masters they might not work well against.

[Kadeton]

Why is Kirai such a bad match up for Freikorps?  I play both these crews (or will do when my Gencon order turns up with Kirai!) so would like to hear thoughts on why they don't match up well to think about other crews/Masters they might not work well against.

Aside from the Librarian, Friekorps models only have Sh and Ml attacks, which do half damage to Incorporeal models (Kirai's entire theme). Kirai can trivially out-summon their damage. On the flipside, many of Kirai's models ignore Armor, which the Friekorps heavily rely on as they have very low Wds. Honestly I think they have this problem against any summoning crew, just Kirai has that extra Armor-bypassing kick in the nuts.

Well, you can also see it in such a way that apart from his HtK and Wp bubble, he doesn't necessarily bring anything even to his Freikorps friends. He's perfectly capable of doing stuff by himself after all.

Is he?

Facetiousness aside, I can't think of anything he can do that at least one other Outcast doesn't do significantly better. I'm so down on him at the moment that there might be something I'm missing, but for all the roles I need Masters to fill, there's someone more suited to the task.

[Bengt]

A couple of librarians seems pretty nice against Kirai, not only for the Ca, but several of her standbys rely on built in suits for their triggers, like ignore armour. There are also a bunch of models people suggest taking with Kirai that aren't incorporeal in the first place, e.g. Gaki, Shikome, Flesh construct, Izamu, Nurse, Kirai, so the regular guys should have something to do.

[osoi]

I know we spoke a bit about VS before you left to go to the US Kadeton, so you have been setting me down this path of insanity as well. I dont want it to come across as group think in our particular meta but I so far have really come to the conclusion so far that he is a generalist with a bit of crew buffing but what he really does is unlock the Steam Trunk as an available model which helps the crew buffing.

 

I like the Freikorps models and I am almost looking at trying to run the crew with Tara leading them instead

[Drool_bucket]

I've seen posts where people talk about the SoC instead of the Trunk. 

 

imo, as Totems go, the Trunk is one of the best.  Whenever one model allows all other friendly models a series of abilities (not too mention VS Engage at Will upgrade) it is usually pretty good.  Add in the fact that the abilities it hands out are all very useful at key times, removing Activation worries, I would never think of not using the Trunk.

 

And another reason I love Hannah is because of her 50mm base and Ht 3, she proves to be the perfect hiding spot for the Trunk to hide behind, leaving it in a key position for others to rally around.

 

RE: Tara...   I use a lot of Friekorps with Tara.  The Specialist, the Librarian and Hannah in most cases.  I often find that the Friekorps usually rally around themselves nicely, each picking another up.  Hannah and the Specialist especially so.

[Lupercal]

I have run a strongarm, Hannah, and librarian in the same list with Tara leading, I have also tried with Lazarus out for the strongarm and a trapper when Hanz wont fit. I havent gotten around to trying regular friekorpsmen or the specialist with her yet but I am of the opinion that Hannah is freaking amazing with Tara and that most of the friekorps (obviously mainly strongarm, Lazarus, and the librarian imo) are amazing with Hannah so it seems to work out. Tara is just such a self sufficient master it seems taking minions that have their own synnergy or are self reliant other than maybe liking fast (who doesnt?) works out well. Which is good as the non Tara themed Outcasts tend to fall into this category a lot. This is one of many reasons i think Tara is generally stronger as a generic Outcast than playing a themed list. I suppose I will pass final judgement after I have tested karinas new upgrade but I dont really think that and the NBs new upgrade will make me change my mind about this.

I will give honorable mention to Johan and Sue for adding some utility to Hannahs make a new entry as well as just being strong models on their own, but I find myself more often than not making an entry of the strongarms Charge Up, or else Lazs' assimilate or self heal. Occasionally the librarians ability to heal others (multiple times) and let hannah heal others comes in useful as well. None of this is even mentioning the fact that hannah can help with bury tricks as well and even send a friendly model back to your deployment zone and let you place it by burying it and then blocking the void marker with a base.

TL, DR- In my opinion Hannah is Taras honorary hench not Von Schills proper one. Although she would probably do well in a lot of lists, schemes/strats not withstanding, as long as you can afford to bring 1-2 other models with decent things to copy. Charged up for plus 1 damage ghost censers are MEAN.

Edit- lol what? You can like your own post? Stupid phone. Or maybe my phone is lying to me that i liked my own post? either way stupid phone.

[Drool_bucket]

the (dirty) trick of burying something with Hannah and then standing on the void marker is just plain awesome....

[Lupercal]

Yeah it makes eternal journey even harder for me to justify taking on Tara when i have scramble as an option and the void marker trick exists. As if it wasnt hard enough already for me to justify not taking scramble on her.

[SpectreEliteGaming]

Usually just a'lurkin but felt compelled to add a couple cents here...

The Moustache, more than almost any other master, really benefits from knowing this game well and using your knowledge of the rules/tricks/crew strategy against your opponent - set them up to fail sorta. Seems appropriate given the merc nature of the crew, eh? I think of him more as a secret weapon to compliment your main crew line up if you end up having a particularly good matchup situation - more like bullying your opponent in a very favorable matchup - not as the "generic all-purpose predictable master" that a lot of people view him as. I've noticed too that there seems to be a wide gap between players who just play the crew and players who play the crew extremely well. If you know ahead of time that your opponent is likely to field a crew (like Kirai) where the matchup will not be to your benefit - just simply don't use him. Even within a tournament setting - people really like to talk about their crews if anyone is willing to listen and pretty soon (round 2-ish) you'll have a good idea of what people are running - otherwise look/ask around.

Not sure if this helps or not but when I play this crew I tend to have more of a Warhammer Fantasy or even Magic mindset rather than running it with a purely Malifaux mindset. You're not pulling off some ridiculous janky combo or exploiting game mechanics - you are maintaining good board position, keep your/opponent's potential in mind - dominate the tempo of the game and push for a dominating presence putting your opponent on the defensive. Never forget the surgical strike potential of this crew - splitting up into a VS/Hannah team position lategame takes a lot of people by surprise.

If you go into a match against an opponent who runs a crew you are not familiar with you will probably be at the mercy of his skill level while you just play "the generic von schill game."

Play Von Schill enough and he'll grow on you as a good insurance policy, at the very least. I like a lot of what Mikey_C said... rest assured that you'll be winning more than you lose and his approach to VS - focus on systematic VP denial while achieving your own objectives - is probably the premiere method of utilizing VS's generalized advantage.

It could also just be a mindset thing too - for every post praising VS - or, Trapper, as it seems - there is one saying "ugh they are crap - why does everyone think he's so good?" - some people get it, some don't.

On the flipside - I would probably NEVER play the Vik crew for reals - though you seem particularly fond of it - and especially competitively - I won't boher going into a Vik vs Schill rant - play that 10 times and tell me if you win once, hehe. Also, I don't see how crews like that are any less "predictable" than Von Schill. You see Tara rocking Obt. Sym. with Bete Noire or a PoI/PoB Levi - you know whats up

Lastly, Von Schill has an above average mirror match and if you dig hardcore format - Freikorps are easily some of the best options available and naturally facilitate speedplay.

[Kadeton]

Usually just a'lurkin but felt compelled to add a couple cents here...

 

Some really interesting points there, cheers. I'll respond to a few of them:

 

I'm yet to see anyone play the Freikorps extremely well, and I think that's a big part of my problem. They seem to me to lack some of the most important qualities for winning games (mobility and killing power - though I will say that in more recent games I have been very impressed with the Strongarm Suit in this regard). If I'd ever had someone destroy me in a match against them I could get some ideas of the effective strategy, but so far that hasn't even come close to happening.

 

I have to say, the statement that they "really benefit from knowing this game well and using your knowledge of the rules/tricks/crew strategy against your opponent" more than other crews sounds a lot like the notion of a "finesse army" - something a bit underpowered that you can win with if you play really well. Sadly, I've always found that every crew benefits from knowing the game and playing the scenario roughly equally, which means that the stronger crews are still stronger.

 

However, I acknowledge that my games playing the Freikorps have had several major flaws - I tended to stick to the theme very strongly (to maximise Schill's buffs), and I didn't have a Steam Trunk or Hannah. Having seen them in action, I feel they are absolutely key pieces, and in combination with some other non-Freikorps models, I can see some very strong synergies. (I particularly enjoyed Rusty Alyce being able to take two (0) Actions and summon an Abomination every turn.)

 

I like your idea of viewing the crew in terms of Warhammer/Magic tempo, position etc. Unfortunately, I tend to find that style of play more than a little dull, however effective it can be. I like flashy control combos and sudden damage spikes, which isn't Schill's style at all, but which his theme is sadly quite vulnerable to. Most of the Freikorps are so fragile that it's easy to blow through them and leave Schill without support.

 

Given my preferences, it might not be a surprise that I favour the Viktorias and Leveticus. I've gone off playing the Viks in competitive games - when things go your way they are literally unbeatable, but it only takes a little bad luck for everything to fall apart very fast. I've played quite a lot of games against Von Schill with them, and the Freikorps just fold - I'd love to hear your Viks vs Schill rant to see what's been missing from those games.

 

I'm hoping that Rathnard's current Outcast kick will yield some decent Freikorps games, and I'll be shown some of the power that you're talking about. I still can't see how they can possibly avoid getting steamrolled by Masters like Leveticus, Nicodem, Kirai or the Dreamer, but perhaps I'll have to eat my words.

 

I will say that the Trappers have been MVPs in several of my recent games. Those guys are amazing - but they work equally well with any Master.

[SpectreEliteGaming]

@Kadeton: So I just read your von Schill battle report in the newest Chronicles - it was awesome! What an epic game that was, haha. Just wondering if your opinion has changed at all about von Schill from the first time you looked into him until now that you've really tested him - or has it stayed relatively stable? Also, its funny because I actually most definently would not have chosen VS for that matchup - turf war with distract and breakthrough - was Jack Daw taking a snooze?

After reading your response comments I think I've come to a pretty solid definition of how I feel about the moustache man. Von Schill is basically "the safe choice" - he's not flashy, he's not overly dominating but he is the safe and reliable option to choose to be able to consistently squeeze that win out in your favor.

Von Schill is the guy who brings the newest and best tourney proven net-deck to Friday Night Magic.

Von Schill is that jerk Dark Elf player who ALWAYS fields deuce hydras.

Basically, he is the guy I would take if a) I'm not totally happy with the possible matchup + strategy/scheme composition when also taking into consideration my ability to negate what my opponent's approach might be or; I'm not entirely sure that what I am planning will actually work and therefore I ask myself "could von Schill be competitive in this scenario?" if the answer is yes, I choose von Schill.

In playing von Schill it is really key to take a more reactive approach to the game - wait to see what your opponent does and counter it, wait and counter - VS is probably the only master I don't really mind if i don't win initiative rolls for (except those crucial times mind you) - it works especially good because this fortifies the mindset to instinctively jump on misplays or mistakes. Of course, this game is 50% VP denial regardless of crew chosen but with VS I find that the importance is secretly placed on putting more focus on VP denial and then squeezing in the last few points that you need to win rather than rat-race scrambling for points from the get-go. You will likely all but dominate games where your opponent reveals both schemes (mostly because you will know exactly how many VP you need to win).

Honestly, you might never really be happy with VS since, as you said, you love that flashy super-specialized aggressive domination. When actuuuuuaaaally that also gives you an advantage when playing VS - you know what a Vik strike or Levi's shenanigans can do and look like ahead of time - you'll know exactly how (and actually have the tools to be able to) deny it (plus VS is damn tough - as your BR showed! hehe). VS is consistency - you want your opponents saying "ugh, I can't DO ANYTHING" not "omg VS steamrolled me."

As far as the Vik comment goes - mostly just trying to razz you a bit The Viks are one of those crews that instantly appeal to people so a lot of people have them as their first crew and therefore they are probably inexperienced with them - set a Vik trap and deny it. Besides that, even a threat of a trap (and a mobile one, at that) is enough for some experienced players to hesitate or put them on the defensive which plays them right into your hand - trappers work great because their potshots can also put pressure on aggressive crews to spring into action at inopportune times. Of course the trappers are good bait as well. I have found cheese sling tactics and alpha strikes to be a really poor strategy against ol' von Schill.

Finally, I can't think of a time that I fielded a VS crew without either Strongarm or Hannah. Lazarus belongs with Levi unless you're playing a very large game.

TL;DR? I HATE losing - moustache man is the definition of "consistent results" and Malifaux's best insurance policy even if he is a bit boring

[MudgeBlack]

Great discussion, gave me a lot of insight into VS (just picked him up from Gen Con).

[Kadeton]

@Kadeton: So I just read your von Schill battle report in the newest Chronicles - it was awesome! What an epic game that was, haha. Just wondering if your opinion has changed at all about von Schill from the first time you looked into him until now that you've really tested him - or has it stayed relatively stable? Also, its funny because I actually most definently would not have chosen VS for that matchup - turf war with distract and breakthrough - was Jack Daw taking a snooze?

Oh cool, I haven't actually read that battle report yet. Glad it came across well, it was a fun game.

It has certainly changed a bit - I like how tough he is in a fight, and I think the Steam Trunk is right up there with the best totems in the game. He's got some neat synergies... I just tend to feel that he's unable to take advantage of all of them in a given situation. He often seems at odds with himself: he's really mobile, but wants to stay with his crew; he's great in melee, but everyone else wants to shoot. He feels like a big tough babysitter, where I like to have my Master out murderising things.

I deliberately chose Von Schill for the game as a "bad" scenario for him - I like to practice with Masters in their worst scenarios, because it makes their good scenarios feel like a breeze. I also wasn't sure how experienced my opponent was - taking on a newer player with Viktoria or Leveticus makes me feel like a jerk because it always turns into a brutal stomping. It turned out he was a pretty good player, and the game was a real challenge, which is always a great outcome. Sadly I didn't have a Jack crew with me!

After reading your response comments I think I've come to a pretty solid definition of how I feel about the moustache man. Von Schill is basically "the safe choice" - he's not flashy, he's not overly dominating but he is the safe and reliable option to choose to be able to consistently squeeze that win out in your favor.

Von Schill is the guy who brings the newest and best tourney proven net-deck to Friday Night Magic.

Von Schill is that jerk Dark Elf player who ALWAYS fields deuce hydras.

Leveticus is that safe choice for me. He's the guy playing Eldar with Imperial Knight allies in a meta of people bringing Orks and Tyranids.

In playing von Schill it is really key to take a more reactive approach to the game - wait to see what your opponent does and counter it, wait and counter - VS is probably the only master I don't really mind if i don't win initiative rolls for (except those crucial times mind you) - it works especially good because this fortifies the mindset to instinctively jump on misplays or mistakes. Of course, this game is 50% VP denial regardless of crew chosen but with VS I find that the importance is secretly placed on putting more focus on VP denial and then squeezing in the last few points that you need to win rather than rat-race scrambling for points from the get-go. You will likely all but dominate games where your opponent reveals both schemes (mostly because you will know exactly how many VP you need to win).

Mm, the Blue/Red approach. I think that's often what makes me uncomfortable about him in games - I hate waiting for my opponent to act so that I can react. I was raised on games like Chess and Go, where being reactive means you're losing, so I get antsy in that position. It always runs the risk that your opponent will do something that you can't effectively respond to, and now you're in trouble.

(I know that it actually can work very well, it just makes me really nervous.)

Honestly, you might never really be happy with VS since, as you said, you love that flashy super-specialized aggressive domination. When actuuuuuaaaally that also gives you an advantage when playing VS - you know what a Vik strike or Levi's shenanigans can do and look like ahead of time - you'll know exactly how (and actually have the tools to be able to) deny it (plus VS is damn tough - as your BR showed! hehe). VS is consistency - you want your opponents saying "ugh, I can't DO ANYTHING" not "omg VS steamrolled me."

Haha, I actually hear "Ugh, I can't DO ANYTHING" quite a lot as Leveticus. People REALLY learn to hate Levy and the Ashes & Dust.

I think you've hit on a really good point, and one of the reasons I was doing badly with Schill - I only had a good understanding of about half the crews in the game before my trip, and Schill really thrives on understanding what your opponent is going to try to do. Now that I have much broader experience, I could probably do a lot better with him in general.

It reinforces my earlier point to some extent - control play in general becomes stronger the better you know your opponent's capabilities, whereas flashy alpha-strike aggression becomes weaker the better the opponent understands how it works. That's probably a much nicer and more accurate definition of finesse than my earlier off-the-cuff dismissal.

As far as the Vik comment goes - mostly just trying to razz you a bit The Viks are one of those crews that instantly appeal to people so a lot of people have them as their first crew and therefore they are probably inexperienced with them - set a Vik trap and deny it. Besides that, even a threat of a trap (and a mobile one, at that) is enough for some experienced players to hesitate or put them on the defensive which plays them right into your hand - trappers work great because their potshots can also put pressure on aggressive crews to spring into action at inopportune times. Of course the trappers are good bait as well. I have found cheese sling tactics and alpha strikes to be a really poor strategy against ol' von Schill.

Heh. I'm at the point with Viktoria now that accurate risk-assessment is an automatic process - a quick glance at board position and cards in hand will reliably tell me what I can kill and what I'll lose in return. The reason I've gone off her in tournaments is basically what I've come to think of as "Black Joker stress" - if you don't know where your Black Joker is, it throws off the risk assessment by a huge amount. Levy doesn't like the Joker, but at least he won't just lose the game by flipping it at the wrong moment.

The effectiveness of slings/alpha strikes (I almost never sling the Viks these days, they're fast enough on their own and do better when they can support each other) really depends on how much the opponent mitigates them. That sounds bad at first, but it simply becomes a different calculation. If the opponent is clumped, it's likely they don't know what to expect and you'll wipe out a big chunk of their forces. If they're spread out, they know what you can do - but now their pieces are more isolated, and they won't be able to mount as effective a counter-attack. You can tell when someone has had a lot of experience against the Viktorias, because they automatically drift into that sweet spot where you can't engage more than two models, but a large portion of their force can collapse to counter. At that point, the game is about forcing the opponent into a bad position and holding the Viks back - that's when they're really fun to play.

Finally, I can't think of a time that I fielded a VS crew without either Strongarm or Hannah. Lazarus belongs with Levi unless you're playing a very large game.

TL;DR? I HATE losing - moustache man is the definition of "consistent results" and Malifaux's best insurance policy even if he is a bit boring

Yeah, I wish I'd had Hannah with my crew from the start, it would have given me a very different perspective.

I almost never run Laz with Levy, oddly enough - I can't justify both him and A&D in most games, so he only gets a look-in if Kill Protege is on the table. He often accompanies the Viks (with Vanessa), where he's incredible value.

Good talk! Have you tried Levy much? I find him incredibly consistent, while also being extremely deadly and mobile, and with special resistance to schemes like Assassinate. I think that's been my biggest Outcast problem - Levy eclipses everyone else, so it can be hard to learn new Masters properly (you just spend the whole time thinking "Ugh, I wouldn't be in this mess if I was playing Levy or Viktoria!")

[jonahmaul]

Just to hijack slightly can somebody give me a run down of Hannah and how to use her?  I picked her up with my Gencon order but looking at her I'm not sure she's worth the SS?  She seems to be a synergy piece that could work very well but I'd be concerned about not pulling it off.

[Bengt]

Run up and hit stuff with the censer! Bury nasties with Void Record. Engage with your  3 and huge base to stop interactions. Hannah always seemed like a straightforward and flexible piece to me. Armour and Nether Flux also make her fairly durable.

 

Keeping a librarian within 8 gives you a heal or extra attack.

[SpectreEliteGaming]

@Kadeton

Choosing masters to put them in deliberately bad situations is very interesting to me, as well. It really does show you the capabilities of a master outside his/her comfort zone. I, however, skip this part and would rather hear it, for interest sake, in a battle report (like yours!) than do it myself. For me I don't even want to give myself the option - in a competition it is the absolute best choice possible or nothing, in my mind. I run a combination of Levy, Daw, Tara, and Von Schill pretty exclusively - and when I don't have that definitive answer that I'm absolutely happy with - the answer is von Schill (in that case he's always the right answer ). I guess that pretty well sums up my view on how I utilize him. Shortly after I started playing again (in M2E) I honed directly in on how the seven master spread across factions seems to work and which masters fit which slots so that I would have a generic framework that I could work off of and then just tweak it depending on what faction/specific master I would be facing in relation to the strategy/scheme combination. I feel that if I did have personal experience with a master in a disadvantageous situation I might be more comfortable taking him instead of the "right" choice - leading to complacency and bad strategy.

Its bad enough because most of the time I say "screw it I'll just play Daw"in my mind before my oponent even tells me what faction he is going to play, lol

As far as "safe choice" goes I'd say the safest choice is ultimately the one you feel most comfortable with, anyway - playing a sub-par choice that you know really well will always be better than the optimal choice you've never played before.

The red/blue dynamic is exactly right - honestly, I would say most of the masters in Outcasts can fit the "Opponent can't do anything" mold - its really a solid faction all together. All things considered, I will always favor a utility (or "avoidant" if you want to think of it that way) approach, if feasible. If you are playing a passive master and you get your opponent to be the one saying "i wonder/i'll wait to see what he'll do next" you already won. A passive/reactive strategy even has the inherent advantage of solely focusing on VP simply because the master is designed to only do that.

I remember reading something in a Wyrd Chronicle one time - can't remember exactly what or which one - but it basically boiled down to "the first thing you should think at the beginning of an activation is - can I score a VP" and I thought "ha! i've thought like that since i first started playing!" Pretty sure it was a Professor Pontificate article - I'd probably be half as good as (i like to think) i am without his articles as a guide - so big props to Rathnard!

Anyway, in that regard, Levy would be aggressive extreme - Daw is the passive (or I like to think disruptive) extreme and von Schill is mid range when either isn't totally optimal - give that a try.

Finally, in large games an A&D/Lazarus package is amazing - less neccesary when you're playing under 40-50. Honestly, I don't even use Lazarus either - Ryle is a better choice so long as you have the option of hiring him (imo, at least). Levy was my first master I saw him and thought "well he's the king of the game." haha

The more I played him the more I saw his weaknesses though (deuce austringer or triple wretch?!?! nooooooooo) and in a mirror situation I would take Tara if it was optimal, naturally Though I've had nothing but success with Daw too so tough to say - Levy naturally bunches into 2-3 groups... thats nothing short of icing on the Daw cake.

Also, when you deny and achieve a surprise assassinate in the same game with JD against the Viks you have truly achieved victory!.... and one very sad opponent, but I digress.

And that's all I have to say on that subject, I guess - VS also has the most badass looking crew in the game so there's that too

[Kadeton]

Its bad enough because most of the time I say "screw it I'll just play Daw"in my mind before my oponent even tells me what faction he is going to play, lol

Oh, so much yes. It's so easy to fall into that habit, and as long as it keeps working, you get complacent. It usually stops working in the pivotal game of a tournament!

The red/blue dynamic is exactly right - honestly, I would say most of the masters in Outcasts can fit the "Opponent can't do anything" mold - its really a solid faction all together. All things considered, I will always favor a utility (or "avoidant" if you want to think of it that way) approach, if feasible. If you are playing a passive master and you get your opponent to be the one saying "i wonder/i'll wait to see what he'll do next" you already won. A passive/reactive strategy even has the inherent advantage of solely focusing on VP simply because the master is designed to only do that.

That's an interesting approach. I tend to favour a more scheme-focused crew (even so far as using hideously expensive models like A&D with Scramble purely for scheme-running - that thing just cannot be stopped from scoring all the points) with a more kill-focused Master. Model denial is the best points denial.

I like to keep that balance - force the opponent to react and focus on your deadlier models while the rest of your crew goes for schemes. I think it's something the Outcasts do better than most. All the Masters can be played very independently of their crew... except for Von Schill, which is probably another factor keeping me from connecting with him properly.

I remember reading something in a Wyrd Chronicle one time - can't remember exactly what or which one - but it basically boiled down to "the first thing you should think at the beginning of an activation is - can I score a VP" and I thought "ha! i've thought like that since i first started playing!" Pretty sure it was a Professor Pontificate article - I'd probably be half as good as (i like to think) i am without his articles as a guide - so big props to Rathnard!

Haha, try playing every other game against him - he's snatched victory from the jaws of defeat against me so many times. Playing in so many tournaments recently has really driven home that message for me - killing is fun, but points are everything.

Finally, in large games an A&D/Lazarus package is amazing - less neccesary when you're playing under 40-50. Honestly, I don't even use Lazarus either - Ryle is a better choice so long as you have the option of hiring him (imo, at least). Levy was my first master I saw him and thought "well he's the king of the game." haha

My one major regret on my trip is that I brought so many useless models in my case that could have been replaced with wider hiring options for Levy. All I brought outside of Outcasts was Sybelle with Belles, Necropunks and a Hanged. There are so many things I want to take a deeper look at with him - I feel like I've barely scratched the surface, because I fell into a comfortable rut. He already feels like the safest Master for any scenario, so I dread to think how powerful he'll be when I add in my Arcanist and Guild constructs.

The more I played him the more I saw his weaknesses though (deuce austringer or triple wretch?!?! nooooooooo) and in a mirror situation I would take Tara if it was optimal, naturally Though I've had nothing but success with Daw too so tough to say - Levy naturally bunches into 2-3 groups... thats nothing short of icing on the Daw cake.

Tara versus Levy is pretty hilarious, and she seems to be a great counter-pick against declared Outcasts in general. She dies really easily, though - Misaki can be a surprisingly good counter to her shenanigans.

Also, when you deny and achieve a surprise assassinate in the same game with JD against the Viks you have truly achieved victory!.... and one very sad opponent, but I digress.

Oh dear. Assassinate was one of the most common schemes in the tournaments I went to, and I just can't take the Viks if it's in play any more - it's like giving your opponent free points. That's basically what pushed me to play Levy so much.

And that's all I have to say on that subject, I guess - VS also has the most badass looking crew in the game so there's that too

Pfffff as if.

[jonahmaul]

Oh dear. Assassinate was one of the most common schemes in the tournaments I went to, and I just can't take the Viks if it's in play any more - it's like giving your opponent free points. That's basically what pushed me to play Levy so much.

On the flip side if you announce Outcasts surely a lot of people assume you will go for somebody like Levi and won't opt to take Assassinate?  Might not be worth the risk in tournaments, guess it depends on how competitive a player wants to be?  Or how the day has gone!  If you're in a five game tournament and lost the first four you might think sod it, time for slaughter!

[Adran]

On the flip side if you announce Outcasts surely a lot of people assume you will go for somebody like Levi and won't opt to take Assassinate?  Might not be worth the risk in tournaments, guess it depends on how competitive a player wants to be?  Or how the day has gone!  If you're in a five game tournament and lost the first four you might think sod it, time for slaughter!

 

You don't pick schemes until you show each other your crews.

They will always know what master you are using before they decide on picking Assasinate. Sure, they have to pick the crew not knowing what master you are, but pick the scheme when they know.

[jonahmaul]

You don't pick schemes until you show each other your crews.

They will always know what master you are using before they decide on picking Assasinate. Sure, they have to pick the crew not knowing what master you are, but pick the scheme when they know.

Ah yes, of course!  Guess you got to go plan B - kill everything first!

[SpectreEliteGaming]

Oh crap, long wind rant like that and I probably forgot to even mention the most important point - you know those empty boards where you go "clearly this guy was to busy painting his crews to bother with terrain"? Yeah, use von Schill there

Its a cheese play but, you know