Why no stat cards?!

[Baalbamoth]

Shadow, I want to gage strength of available models without buying extra books or decks, option 1 beg other people to borrow books, option 2 do something illegal, option 3 resent paying money for something I feel should be free.

And when will wyrd send me the free high quality glossy stat card for that mini I bought? Or will I have to go buy an outcasts deck for one mini that costs half as much as the mini did if I want that card? Especially after they take the wave 2 downloads down.

[Deggiera]

option 4, Realise this is a personal issue to yourself. be it monetary or mental. and find a solution of your own.

[Shadowfane]

That's fine - but that's your opinion, and nothing else.  I have absolutely no problem with you having that as a opinion, just like I have absolutely no problem with all the various religions in the world, but I do have an issue with them turning up on my door and trying to convert me.

 

The way it is done is a business decision by Wyrd, for whatever reason.  They may have run the numbers on giving out their rules for free and come to the conclusion that it wouldn''t be worth it.  Is is going to please everyone? No, but then no decision like this ever will.

 

My opinion is that I have no trouble at all handing a small amount of money over to Wyrd for arsenal decks every now and then: it's a nice halfway state between giiving rules out for free and the neverending churn of books that is the GW way.

 

If one of your options is honestly "resent wyrd" then you probably need to take a step back and realise that they have good reasons for doing it the way they''ve decided to do it, and not just "because they can"

[Baalbamoth]

Deggiera and shadow, I asked the question

"Is there any good reason why stat cards are not available online or on wikis?"

So far I haven't heard one, and clearly I'm not the only person who feels free rules and free great apps wouldent be terrible things for the company or the players.

[Shadowfane]

Well, the only answer you're going to get that has the advantage of being probably accurate is "Because Wyrd doesn't feel that it would suit their business model and/or profit margins"

I mean, do you really think any other reason is going to be given?

[Deggiera]

cards that are unavailable through the core rulebooks and arsenal boxes are available for download in a pdf format free of charge.

 

there is nothing to revisit. you have been informed.

 

Pull my finger gives a very good indication as to what each model is capable of and what you can expect of them.

this site is gifted to us by the selfless acts of the community of this game.

 

If the above is not enough for you, along with this topic where multiple people have offered advice to be completely ignored. then you are beyond help.

 

Good day

[Baalbamoth]

I dunno, that answer seems pretty vague, and to expand on it or state it in a different way would be "because wyrd wants you to pay for something that other companies offer for free"

[Shadowfane]

Really? Other companies offer Wyrd's rules and model stats for free? Where from?....

 

(I'm obviously being somewhat silly here, but you get my point, I hope)

[Deggiera]

My turn to ask a question.

 

If these holy companies, these gifts bestowed upon us by the gods, are so perfect.... why are you even here.

 

(bare in mind any answer such as "coz i like the models" or any variation upon that will result in well that's because revenue = R&D)

[Deggiera]

Look this topic has devolved into a poo throwing competition. The simple fact of the matter is, this is the way things are. the vast majority of us feel their products are worth the money, when we give them the money their next updates bring us tighter rulesets and sexy toys. making a perpetual cycle of growth and satisfied customers.

 

every business model will consider majority over minority. that's just business, and sadly you are the minority.

 

I hope some day you find a merit that you can cling onto about this game. if not maybe its not the right move for you and i wish you luck in whatever game you end up with.

[Baalbamoth]

Deggiera- Because some friends on mine asked me to play it with them, so revenue = advertising, BUT the same thing happened when those same friends asked me to drop D&D for pathfinder, one reason being because the core books were free. Demand more from your game company, hold them to a higher standard and you just might get it. Ask only that they remain the same and stagnation just might kill it off (or get you bought out by Hasbro)

Malifaux is a fun game, is it wrong for me to want my gaming expirence to be cheaper, better, or more fun? Should I give up the fun I'm having because I don't like one aspect of their revenue generation?

And if I believe there is a way to not only improve the game but also likely increase sales, should I listen to fan Bois yelling "shut up! love it or leave it!"

[akaean]

Eh overall I've been very impressed with Wyrd's offerings. 

 

I started like you did Baalbamoth, except that was back in 1.5, I bought the mini rulebook for 15 dollars, and all my stat cards came from the crew boxes and models I bought.  I never really felt like I was missing anything.  I could always ask my opponents to see what their cards were, and PullmyFinger was (and still is) an excellent resource for determining what future purchases to make.  The fact that you get the full rules for your models with each box purchase is awesome.  Malifaux is by far the cheapest wargame that I have played.

 

I bought the full rulebook for 2E, and the Guild Arsenal deck to get the rules for my metal crews.  I really like the new cards, and the upgrades are nice.  I'll definitely be buying the Wave 2 arsenal deck for my Lucius and Hoffman crews even though I have the print outs.  The fact is I like a lot of the "gear" that Wyrd is releasing.  Like the scheme / strategy cards, when those come out I'll probably be picking those up too, and I was a huge fan of the metal base inserts (which are going rapidly out of production much to my great sadness)

 

Overall I have no real problem with the way Wyrd does business.  Your friend had it right.  All you need is the 15 dollar rules manual, and a few packs of models.  All the cards you need come with the models, you can get an overview of what they do on PullMyFinger to help guide your purchases.  If you want to know the exact specifics of every model in the game at all times, then yes.  You will need to buy the big rulebook, and the second big rulebook when it comes out.   But the fact is that you don't *need* any of that stuff to get into the game, or make educated decisions on what you want to pick up next, and if you are planning on sticking with a faction, buying the mini rulebook and your faction's arsenal deck will pretty much get you everything on your faction contained in the Big rulebook for about half the cost.  Its an amazing deal compared to companies like Games Workshop.

[Shadowfane]

Welll, I can't speak for Deg, but I'm certainly not saying shut up, love it or leave it - I'm just trying to point out

a) likely reasons as to why Wyrd have decided on the business model they have.

the fact that ssome of the stuff you were looking for is in fact online and available free, even if only temporarily.

 

If you enjoy the game and stick around, then great - even if there are areas you might disagree with with wyrd or other gamers.

If not, we'll be sorry to see you go

[Deggiera]

what you are asking is unreasonable. you want better for cheaper.

 

I feel your issue is between yourself and your buddies, i would suggest you approach them.

 

the way wyrd is running their business is fine, release schedule needs work but they are still having teething issues since m2e and plastics ect to be expected. and if they feel they need to hold back on products to ensure we get the best they can offer im willing to wait.

 

so to drastically change something that isn't broken would be a gamble with potentially dire consequences.

 

I think it prudent that you separate your opinion on how they run their business from fact.

 

Im glad you have found aspects of the game you like, and i would LOVE to talk about those with you. but... this... no. Im reasonably confident you haven't owned an international business before yet you swing into business models like you wrote the book on them. enough dude.. cmon..

[Emberlost]

Just dropping my $.02 on this:

 

I'll admit I'm new here as well, but Wyrd seems like a pretty good company to me. Yes, they've been having problems with their release schedules. But overall, Malifaux is much less expensive than a lot of other miniature games. I've got two crews, the big rulebook, and two arsenal decks, and I'm less than $150 invested. With some games, that would just be getting started on my first army. I like the mechanics, and I've got my "Two guys decide to kill each other" demo down to ten minutes. So I'm happy with Wyrd.

[Baalbamoth]

Akaean- I think its a good value, the fluff (to me, completely subjective opinion) seems a bit excessive at times, the new plastics are great (think the metals require too much pinning) rules seem balanced. overall a really good game.

But... the faction deck thing is a bit annoying, I'm going for constructs, some guild, some arcanist, some outcast, that means a lot of decks I gotta buy especially when I'm not going to use 90% of those decks. Like the "pay to read" rules its not a game breaker but I'd like to see that change somehow.

[Shadowfane]

You're playing a mostly construct crew? So.... hoffman/Leveticus?

In that case, I'm sorry, but that's a self-inflicted problem - you've picked a master and crew that draws from multiple factions due to hiring abilities.  Those type of masters are in the distinct minority, since most masters pick 90% of their crew from their respective factions (dual faction models aside).

 

You can hardly blame Wyrd for their faction-based arsenal decks and suchlike if you've picked masters with wider than average hiring abilities so that you have to buy more decks than you might have otherwise done so.

[Baalbamoth]

I bought Ramos cause he seemed easy to play as a beginning master, which (naturally) drew me to Hoff/Levi. But really, would it be all that hard to sell replacement cards? Here's my receipt for 1e Lazarus, please send me a 2e card.

[Math Mathonwy]

I dunno, that answer seems pretty vague, and to expand on it or state it in a different way would be "because wyrd wants you to pay for something that other companies offer for free"

To be fair, even though I listed quite a few companies that do give their rules out for free, there still are many companies that don't. It isn't a strange decision in any way.

Now, I do agree that the need to buy Arsenal decks can be annoying if you're collecting several factions and are only now starting (personally I had a big pile of metal, so I needed the cards anyway, but for a new player it's a hassle). I think that's a valid complaint. But I while do recognize that, I also recognize that the decision that Wyrd made is the best one for them and it won't change.

Furthermore, the advice on the forums is always to take what you think is the most cool. No one mentions that some Masters need quite a bit of non-mini type purchases to get the maximum out of them. It isn't a problem for experienced players, but can be a hassle for beginners.

[Deggiera]

So i bought this train ticket yesterday, imagine my horror when the guy in the booth said i had to buy a whole extra ticket for today!!! i understand my comparison has some flaws, however everything we need is provided for us, can we please move onto something we CAN help you with? id rather splash 5 quid on a deck box than the 30 odd quid for codecies and equivalent

 

If you have financial restraints and cant facilitate every card box perhaps find out what models are most prevalent in your crews and limit yourself to those, while not wholey competitive its not the worlds biggest handicap, there are alot of good in-faction models

 

A meifeng box would of been a nice addition to the Ramos box (note all 2e cards) and more so in favor of Mei Feng there is alot of interesting cross over   throw a rail golem in there and some metal gamin and you have a few ways you can swap around a 50ss list and have 2e cards aswell as 2 masters that complement each others short comings

 

(note maybe some more spiders for summoning)

 

Edit; one thing i would like to point out, if you started this with "so i bought Ramos and I was wondering where to go from here, i want to stick to a constructy theme. money is a slight issue, and i would like to stick to those with up to date cards can anyone give some suggestions" the quality of help would of been drastically different than to flat out slating something. 

[Poko]

Wow...quality thread.

 

Honestly, putting stats online doesn't seem like a bad idea in any way. Folk who don't care about the game still won't care and bring in any money regardless of it. If you don't care for the nicely made models, you sure as hell won't care about their stats. It's just a bit of convenience for those of us who prefer not to lug too much paper around. Instead, it gets treated like a slight to the company's honor for some reason.

 

And before someone goes "but they dont do it so shut up about it"...how are they supposed to know there's a need for it if no one's to bring it up? You don't improve service by listening to the praise but to the criticism.

[Hateful Darkblack]

I love Pathfinder! I play it often and I do like their distribution model. I buy most of the books in the stores. We switched over from 3.5 when Pathfinder was in alpha and we've been using it ever since for my LEGO Vikings game. The SRD is a great resource: I use it whenever I'm setting up a game.

 

Baalbamoth, Is there a way you could download the Wave 2 files from home and put them on a thumb drive or something?

 

I don't think you're going to be able to convince Wyrd to give away their files. Even if other companies have done so.

 

As the guy who wrote the Leveticus tactica, I also should say this: If money's tight for you right now, you probably don't want to use Leveticus. Hoffman may be a Master that requires fewer purchases. Or Ramos! Or Colette!

[Deggiera]

While we are bringing up the drama again, may i point out that my stand point is that this is an already cheap game for a miniatures company. and they are a successful company.

our opinions are merely conjecture, their business model is based on experience and we would do well to remember that.

 

but yeah reinforcing what myself and HTB said, might be best choosing a more self contained crew if your main issue is buying a bunch of arsenal decks.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Also: Your friend who told you that the small rule book was all you needed? I talked with him or her, and he or she agrees that he or she has a moral obligation to lend you his or her copy of the main rulebook so you can check and compare stats!

[Webmonkey]

Ok guys,.. I'm not a Moderator by any means,.. but having just read through the thread, some of the comments are starting to come across as "personal attacks". I'd like to take a moment to remind everyone to keep it civil,.. before the Mods come in here and start dropping hammers on people's heads.

 

Thank you,...