So, how does "When killed, heal 1 point..." work?

[Zalabar]

This model gains the following Ability:

 

Blackened Scepter:While this model is in play, friendly Horseman models which are killed or sacrificed are buried instead and heal 1 damage. When this model is buried, unbury any Horseman buried in this way within 2" of this model before removing it

 

From this thread

 

Interesting on the wording... you can die while buried. Nothing here says references it's buried or unburied state when checking for death.

 So, I think the operation goes...

 

Pony is reduced to negative bajillion points->Check for Levi buried state. If he's buried, pony is soopah ded. If he is not, bury pony, heal one point.

Pony is now at 1+negative bajillion points. Rules for less than 1 hp come into effect, setting the model to ded/sac'd. But that triggers Black Scepter, which then removes another point... repeat ad infinitum until the model no longer has to check for dead, which is only when it has more HP than 0, stepping back up by one each time... so the pony is finally buried with 1 HP.

 

 

I am curious about this keep healing one wound ad nauseum til alive ruling you guys have come up with. 

Is there a precedent for it? Is there something in the rules that allows you to count as killed many times?

I believe the rules for killed are something along the lines of "When a model is reduced to 0 or fewer wounds it is removed as killed".

If that is the case I'm honestly curious how you are triggering "killed" by healing 1 wound repeatedly.

So, does it work this way, and is my interpretation of states a valid one?

[Ausplosions]

No. It does not work this way. Because no one would expect anyone to believe it does. And if I was playing anyone who did, I would pack it up and leave.

[Zalabar]

Somehow, I was hoping for a better explanation as to how it works. Like, say... "Nope, an ability only works once." or "Killed isn't a condition."

But good to know your feelings. Can you... um... elaborate on them?

[Ikvar]

Dont mind Ausplosions, he is a nice guy deep down, but his answers can be a bit short and negativ

 

I must admit that the quotes you have in your post are a bit hard to understand, but I will happily give my interpretation of the skill itself.

 

When Leveticus is in his Avatar form, any Horseman that is killed is simply buried instead and heals 1wd. If Leveticus then dies(and gets buried) within 2inches of the aforementioned killed/buried Horseman, this model will then get unburied with 1wd before you remove Leveticus from the board.

 

Does that help, or have I missed some part of your question?

[Dracomax]

I think the question is, what happens when Rider X at, say, 3 wounds, gets hit for 8?

Does it reduce to 0, die, get buried, and heal to 1?

Does it reduce to -5, die, get buried, and heal to -4, still dead, and Be removed permanently?

Or

Does it reduce to -5, die, get buried, heal to -4, die, heal to -3, etc. until brought to 1 Wd?

 

WHile I think we can all agree the last is a bit odd...I can see the justification for either of the first two.

[Mike3838]

The question that is being asked is this:

 

If I have 1 Wound left, and you hit me for 6 damage, say, do I go to (-5) wounds? The rules seem to suggest so - no minimum is given for the Wounds stat unlike others, and the rules reference "when a model is reduced to zero or fewer wounds".

 

Given that, if you had an ability which says "Heal one damage and Bury this model", such as Avatar Leveticus I presume, what happens? Healing 1 damage isn't enough to keep you alive.

[Mike3838]

Ninja'ed!

 

I think the pertinent question is - does a model ever *actually* get reduced to a negative number of wounds? Are there times where it is practical, or necessary, to do so? Shouldn't zero be the minimum?

[Ikvar]

The Horseman would simply be reduced to zero wd no matter how much damage he receives, and then heal 1wd after he is buried, and will therefore be unburied with 1wd no matter how much damage he would have recieved before he was buried... hope that is clear enough

[hypoking]

Not sure that's right Ik, rules specifically mention a model can be reduced to negative wounds. Nothing in the raw would suggest that wound counts either a ) stabilize at zero or b ) take a breather once they hit zero to resolve on kill abilities. Additionally, given the hubabloo that got kicked up over Incorporeal you're never supposed to interrupt a mathematical function, so the kill trigger wouldn't come into play until after the health total was finalized at whatever it ended up.

 

Edit: Also, rule in question is from the beta. There's every possibility this isn't going to be he final wording.

[Zalabar]

Sure, but at this point we're figuring out if recursive abilities are intended;

  ie; After resolving the ability, check for the initial conditions again. If they're still met, resolve until that changes.

and ultimately the logical underpinnings of the game so that weird other topics that might wind up related later could still be explained.

  ie; If recursion does work, what if the ability in question cannot resolve the initial conditions? In the unlikely event of infinite loop... what happens?

 

The beta seems the best place for chattery on this stuff.

 

Also, sorry for the mixup. Mike3838 and Dracomax have the right wording.

Ikvar has the current functioning methodolgy from the Beta forums.

[Thaarup]

I am taking a guess that a model was never meant to run around with a negative number in wounds, but strictly rulewise I guess the rules currently support this.

However there are a few technicalities(word?).

- A model is only killed when its wounds are reduced (to zero or below) so unless the model suffers additional wounds after "losing" the killing charistica it will not gain Killed again until it loses wounds again. (Rulebook, page 46).

- If a model that is Buried is Killed, it can not benefit from any abilities that happen on the models death. (Rulebook, page 47).

- A model that is Buried are never considered to be in LoS or within range of effects. These models do not count as "in play" for the purposes of other rules that reference whether or not a model is in play. (rulebook, page 47).

 

I would think that the last "rule" applies when a model is buried so the same model does not gain any benefit from The Blackened Scepter, as does the second rule.

[Mason]

 

Edit: Also, rule in question is from the beta. There's every possibility this isn't going to be he final wording.

 

It's also fairly relevant to Hamelin and the way his Stolen interact with negative wounds.

[Ikvar]

This is from the newest version

 

"Blackened Scepter: While this model is in play, friendly

Horseman models which are killed or sacrificed are

buried instead and heal 1 damage. When this model is

buried, unbury any Horseman buried in this way within 2"

of this model before removing it."

 

As far as I know you are not able to target anything that is buried, and I cant see anywhere in this quote where it states you can heal the Horseman further after it is buried- therefore burying the Horseman if it would have less then zero wounds  would make no sense, as you would simply have a dead Horseman buried.

 

It is furthermore extremely rare( at least in the games I have played), that you kill a model to exactly zero wounds, which would make this ability absolutely useless... but it seems like I am missing something, because all of this seems glaringly obvious(not to sound condescending in any way). So if I am just repeating my point, and making an arese out of myself, please tell me ^^

[The Godlyness]

Well this would answer the Collette conundrum also. Do you have to sac a model with mire wounds than damage dealt to stay alive or are set to 0 which has no basis in the rules? If the model is decapitated/ assassinated but still had wounds left I think it gets a heal. But reducing it below zero and healing 1 still leaves you <0 you still be killed. Course I wish I could find killed in the rulebook

[Fenrisian]

My thought on the situation is, since it says 'instead' of being killed or sacrificed, I would imagine it cancels the damage that would kill it and it is simply buried.  Sacrifice is you just pull it off the board.  This says instead of that.  So instead of killing the model, it's buried.  Since damage is what kills it the damage is ignored as well. 

[hypoking]

Then there wouldn't be much point to the heal in the first place.

 

The replacement clause overrides the the usual auto death bit for 0 or less wounds. I think we can all agree the intent of the heal on all of these abilities is to prevent the kill clause from going off again. The issue, as Ik points out, is that as the game allows negative health the amount of healing necessary to get above the critical threshold tends to be wildly inconsistent relative to the actual healing received.

[Thaarup]

... But reducing it below zero and healing 1 still leaves you <0 you still be killed. Course I wish I could find killed in the rulebook

 

I am not so sure about that. The killed charistic only kicks in when the models wound is reduced to 0 or below. in the example of a model getting first reduced to -2 wounds it is affected and would be considered killed . But if the model then loses the killed "stat" it would have to be further damaged before getting a new killed "stat". So the model could in theory move around with negative wounds.

 

Course I wish I could find killed in the rulebook

 

 

Rulebook page 46. 

[Ikvar]

Lets break this up in simple questions

 

1. Do we all agree that you cannot target a buried model?

2. Do we all agree that if you cannot target a buried model, you are not able to heal it any further?

3. Do we all agree that nothing in the ability implies that you can break this rule, or implies that it will ever heal more then 1wd?

 

If we can all agree on these 3 simple points, logic would imply(in my humble opinion) that the target would not go below zero wounds, as this ability would otherwise be completely useless 90% of the time, and you would simply have a dead Horeman in the ground  

 

If I am not correct in my conclusion, then I am just happy I do not play Leveticus as this ability would be extremely unreliable to say it diplomatic

[HalcyonSeraph]

I think the question is, what happens when Rider X at, say, 3 wounds, gets hit for 8?

Does it reduce to 0, die, get buried, and heal to 1?

Does it reduce to -5, die, get buried, and heal to -4, still dead, and Be removed permanently?

Or

Does it reduce to -5, die, get buried, heal to -4, die, heal to -3, etc. until brought to 1 Wd?

 

WHile I think we can all agree the last is a bit odd...I can see the justification for either of the first two.

 

The last one is introducing mechanics that appear nowhere, and is clearly not how it works. We don't get to make up algorithms for things. 

 

The second one is also clearly not how it works, unless you think Blackened Scepter was meant to be literally useless except against attacks that bring a Rider exactly to 0. 

 

Thus it must be the first one. 

[hypoking]

Just for the sake of argument, can anybody actually think of a rule interaction that benefits from, or is made clearer, by negative health totals? Seems like this would be a lot simpler, and a lot less reliant on 'you know what we mean,' if a model couldn't suffer more damage than it had remaining wounds.

[The Godlyness]

I am not so sure about that. The killed charistic only kicks in when the models wound is reduced to 0 or below. in the example of a model getting first reduced to -2 wounds it is affected and would be considered killed . But if the model then loses the killed "stat" it would have to be further damaged before getting a new killed "stat". So the model could in theory move around with negative wounds.

Rulebook page 46.

So you are saying things can die twice then or more. Ok then here's a thing, killjoy is at 1 wound hits a model with his cleaver reducing it to <0 wounds triggers onslaught and brings them further <0 would he heal twice then? *Waves at ausplosions*

[hypoking]

Just from the raw, technically I think the instead clause would prevent it from being killed in the first place and leave the model in some negative health limbo land.

[Justin]

Before this gets too much further out of hand, could somebody point me to where in the rules the process of models going into negative wounds is explicitly stated?

 

So far, all I have is pg. 46:

 

"If the model is reduced to 0 or fewer Wounds it is immediately removed from the game as killed."

 

The "or fewer" clause is there to clarify that you don't have to get a model to EXACTLY 0 wounds to kill it (and if "or fewer" wasn't there, I guarantee that's the conversation we'd be having right now).

 

But is negative wounds spelled out anywhere else as a thing that can happen, or is it just those two words? This is a genuine question; you guys have me thinking I missed something.

[Ikvar]

I mostly see this as a case of overanalyzing a rule, instead of just looking at it in a more simple and logical way, just like I was trying to point out in my last post... which ironically seems people are ignoring while continuing the debate

[The Godlyness]

I think the implication is or fewer means you can be below 0. Negative wounds is not explicit but common sense and reading that makes it very implicit. But stopping at zero works just fine for me. Which according to Collette you can heal from which is fine and dandy to me. RIDE ON HORSEMEN!!!!

[Ausplosions]

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I don't want notifications of this one.