Blacks85

Aren't we digress too much on the "netlist" rather than the problem of balancing models to avoid fixed lists? Because you might like / dislike / be indifferent in regard of the fixed lists...they will surely accelerate the process of find the best fixed lists, but the problem isn't this but the fixed lists themselves plus the very strict pool of really balanced models...and we almost all agree on it, right? so if we mostly agree, maybe Wyrd want to consider some action to balance models and increase the level of compete with much more models. I agree on what @Omenbringer said: I don't think they've done a great work balancing models in this game, but I do believe they've done outstanding work in doing the game mechanics with all its features and possibilities. And it would be a pity to throw this away by don't improve the "weak" part of the game. You correctly said that perfect balancing is impossible, and it can't be more true than that. What I think is pretty easy to achieve, it's to delete the extreme at the top and bottom of the curve, I mean the worst model you'll never consider to hire and the best model you never consider to do not hire. You can smooth these with very low effort and increase so much the pool of viable models. Meanwhile changing also the schemes to help the models otherwise you will rarely or never hire. Maybe we can do a 3 days full of games nerd camp to build thousands of feedback and improvement for many models, that would be fun

Exactly, always I say. Mainly for a problem that could be solved by changing a little the schemes. Its very hard to score vp with minions and its very hard to score vp when there are models near to your scheme marker. This results in playing lot of henchman and enforcer to delete opponent and scheme After. If you, for instance, let only minion with ss6 or less contest the marker and also make them more viable for schemes like hunting party (scoring points with minion over minion) the list will change a lot..because you cant focus on the henchman/enforcer delete squad. This our experience, at least

If you don't, this means you have to take a WP duel between DM and papa loco. DM is strongly ahead because it is 5 vs 4 with parity staying in the box. (Beside turning jokers and screwing up your project completely..both of them.) This means you go for luck and you'll have to cheat a low card for DM (that you might now have or used with Sonia "discard 2") or an high / medium for Papa loco which is precious. Cards are not infinite and they are very precious for Sonia.

Well...The guild marshall need to attack something to popout loco. This means you have to let him charge your model 7", super easy to avoid, and even if this is the case he can threat only 4"/3" radius which auto kill the deathmarshall itself and in the best of scenario trade two models for two models...which is not that good in my opinion unless you've let the DM charge two elite models of your crew

I personally don't like this list, I don't see how it could work effectively when you're basically building a crew around your leader. Watcher is paper thin, it has to be 3" away from you and there is no chain activation...meaning you can quite easily smash it down. Guild marshal is super thin as well for 6 SS, basically holding another useless (or potentially auto-destructive) 7SS papa-loco inside. There is corner malifaux child and a same useless brutal effigy somewhere around. Finally, you got the two austringer probably spread on the sides that have average-to-weak attack potential. What does this mean? There's nothing to worry about rather than Sonia...and Sonia can't certainly destroy your army alone (unless, of course, you're moving forward with all models touching each other ) I think the only - or almost - way to lose against such a crew is to play with fear. I'm making it deliberately easy, but all you have to do is move forward with the best speed you have just threatening much pieces as possible and the game is done. She will react on a single, or probably two target by killing one or two of them..but then you will engage her start to make her crew working to push around and save her while you can effectively push damage down and start trade more models than she does. Everything is this crew (except the effigy) is super thin for the SS cost of the models with average-to-low damage output (except Sonnia). With TT now is extremely easy to win, imo. You've just got the strongest piece of the game which is insanely overpowered...just 0% tested or it wouldn't be released half of its power....the new Henchman of the ONI master. With a quite easy 21 inches engagement with FAST, no LOS and incorporeal charge you can pull out 12 damages without much effort and instantkill almost anything in this game...also pieces like Rasputina, Colette, Dreamer...it basically oneshot all master that have been relied on a defensive trigger so far. (while in the process you kill a watcher, an austringer or something else with a free attack and everything with from recalled training) Or based on the schemes you could fight it with distance: ShenLong + 2 katanaka you can easily outrange everything in the game while spreading around 4 focused attacks with and a very good DMG output. Or you can hardcounter her with some elite models like MerryLaCroix or Nix (not for TT) which makes her basically auto-lose.

Technically - and it would be a super awesome part of this game - nestling should be useless. If the schemes were be much balanced and varied, if the models in the game were more different and viable in many scenarios....you would pick a list and have no reason to use it unless the conditions are the same (opponent, schemes), your habits and "tastes" are the same...because you should always re-do the list based on what you're facing and what the schemes BUT ALSO the table / terrain are. And turning yearly the schemes, maybe also increasing the number...would make each game UNIQUE and this would be the absolutely craziness of fun, at least in my opinion. (still the reason why I've started this game) And I believe it would be the top of fun at all levels, not only in the competitive environment - which is where I do belong.

Yes, this game is fixed list rather than build freely your crew among all the models of your faction. This is mostly due to the fact that not all pieces were tested enough and balanced properly. You can clearly see - by picking Montresor and compare it with almost anything else - that it won't never worth its cost, so you put it away. The same for many more models around the game making - if fact - a 40SS fixed crew game plus couple of jolly models to hire. The thing that pushed me into playing this game is the incredibly new and fun system to have many really different schemes and to have the possibility of doing the crew before the game just with these schemes / opponent faction intel by choosing among the 40+ models of my faction! Absurdly crazy fun. Unfortunately, more I learn the game and more I pull out models from my case to leave in it only who deserves a spot...and they are very, very close to a fixed crew throwing away the most fun I've spot in this game. I'm a competitive player, I've always approached all games as competitive as possible including Magic for 10+ years at pro level. My consideration are only in this direction, I try to make the crew most effective as possible. I believe this game still have INCREDIBLE and AMAZING mechanics all around and I still believe it's possible to make almost everything balanced, or at least very very viable in a crew selection. Of course, this would require a hard play-test and a kind of 2.5 edition with almost 70% of the cards revised... ...but it would lead to a game extremely more fun to play at any levels - tournament, casual and campaign. Increase the variety, increase the fun, give everyone the possibility to play what he/she loves with a fair chance to win.

Tara is probably the most underpowered master in the game, surely the worst in Outcast/Resser. So it's not entirely your fault anyway, you surely can do better but...you're not fighting with fair guns ! Only way you can try to play tara is throwing in the face of your opponent a very big beater with fast at the end of your turn. Just bury it giving tara reactivate, move the rest of your team and then unbury the big guy with fast and throw it into your opponent face. By the end of the turn, when activating tara...you can also try to bury something to your opponent after you unbury your model...but only if they have no cards in hand: TN13 is too easy otherwise... Also tara thematic crew is very underpowered...mostly if you compare them with Wave4. Nothing beast and wretches are unusable... I suggest you to try a lot scion of the void. It's a not a broken model, but it's not weak either...at least in my opinion. Never tried it yet....but with librarian? It may give you nice options.

What are those? where can you buy them? They are pretty cool, considering a headswap !

thanks guys !

Hello Guys, I've the 4th wave handbook but there is no clue on when the swine pig-gremlins will be released. What would you use if you have to proxy them? I can also work to convert something - not too hard - with green stuff thanks

I usually don't hire neither piglets or warpig. However, with the new upgrade for 0SS I believe that Warpig might be better than the Sow, hired. Still have to try it with Ulix...but with Wong it was a crazy apocalypse pig

I've tried them few times, didn't like them. Also with the bow, yeah...they're cute but why don't shoot on a Sow or Warpig instead? I personally find them 1SS overpriced, they would have been fine for 5, I guess.

Exactly, as the Zipp's henchman. Lost in Gremlin from Neverborn? Bit sad

Simply Wong. The cursed swine are just terribly op.

With upgrades, yeah we have prety bad ones a part dirty cheater... but as faction we are absolutely the strongest one

Yes, I've tried it with Wong and it did 3 charge the turn I've discarded the upg. It just wiped out half a crew lol

I've tried it today and - probably with Ulix - is worth to hire a WarPig rather than a The Sow now. It's definitively a beast when he discard that potentially doing 3 charge with + to everything #Insane with the Wong magical conditions

The whisky golem is a 0ss upgrade too, I guess? However...you had no reason to hire a warpig in general. Now, it can be a pretty devastating one-shotter with this upgrade, I will give it a try this noon

There is no reason to don't summon warpig? if you have a 12+ in hand, why you wouldn't add a 9SS model to your crew? This is basically free, and sure it will impact positively the game

Yeah, trixie is the only one. You can buy it with Sammy as well.... but I usually never take it

uhhh really? That's sweet

You can't make a comparison between the worst henchman and probably the strongest one (or one of the, surely the best resser) Sybelsse has: 1 SS less cost Terrifying all Hard to wound built in, so free upgrades choice she deals damage! both ranged and melee she makes people insignificant she has +1WP, +1 WD, -1 HT and very strong upgrades... But the point is....Montresor game is to pull everyone to him...that is why he needs to be tough to survive....that is why the concept of model is awesome but is definitively underperforming in game.

For a simple reason, being in base contact with it is very hard. Even if you walk close to someone, he may walk and hit you or if you do your whisper to pull everyone to you...the models will touch each other stopping everyone after the first to get pulled into base contact. So, what it basically does, is possibly save him from 1 attack if opponent hasn't the card to hit you twice from base contact. Hard to wound is obviously the worst defensive ability of the game. Sometime, it also increase the odd to have a red joker on damage too

they could have just written "This doesn't count toward the number of upgrades"