James Gus

Am I reading this correctly? Charge says push and then take a melee action that doesn't count against your limits. Engulf is a melee action. Can I charge, swallow someone, and then, say, drop a scheme down?

Slam only affects impassable markers or destructible terrain. The lamps are neither.

... and Gluttony ... I keep finding more darn it! Not sure slam works though.

Definitely telegraphed, but the markers are not destructible. The number of models that can just remove non-destructable markers is pretty small. Jedza, Molly, Zoraida, Dashel, Corpse Curator or Wong. I'm not sure what most folks can do about it. Also, pretty hard not to telegraph Load 'em Up!

Is taking all 3 Lamplighters going to make the first point for Load 'em Up all but unstoppable? The lamps aren't destructible, right? And nothing says you can't put them all on the opponent's side. Only some rare anti-marker tech like Lost Knowledge is going to stop it, no? Might get tricky in standard deployment but especially in flank or corner it should be easy to get them all down.

I'm just taking the dive into EVS and I'm thinking Hidden Agenda seems interesting on Calypso. Anyone tried this? If you have it in the thick of things it's survivable enough that it should proc "Backup Plan" with some regularity. Plus, with Dr Beebe inside, your opponent can't be sure if you're cheating a throw away but reconfigured low card/9 or a severe. With Armour 2, maybe you don't care! Thoughts?

I think the point of the OP is that you only need them for one turn or two if it is the right turn or two and you use them correctly. The way schemes have changed a surprise reckless run from a hiding place at the right time can net you points even if the model is thrown away in the process.

Aha! Somehow I read "may" as must. So I can move all the fireteams into range, and then they can all fire. That makes more sense! Thanks yall!

Afternoon gang, The Advance Order specifically says the unit takes an action, and then moves. Am I correct that that timing is specific, or am I missing something that says the movement can come before or after the action? In other words, all other things being equal, a generic "missile" unit can only target something that is in it's range at the start of it's activation, either with Advance or Focused Effort. It has no way to move to get a target in range and then fire in the same activation (again, generic and all other things being equal.) Is this correct?

If this is a settled issue, it makes it much easier for me! Thanks yall!

I agree that Radiance is a condition on Sandeep. However, the wording of Radiance says "Models which are damaged by one of this model's _attack actions_ ..." It doesn't say models which are damaged by this _model_. That would have definitely settled it. Technically speaking, Arcane Storm is Sandeep's attack action regardless of who uses it.

Afternoon gang, Quick question for everyone. Say your Arcane Effigy casts Arcane Radiance on Sandeep. The wording of Arcane Radiance states "models which are damaged by one of this model's Attack Actions must discard ... blah blah." Does that mean that if someone else copied Arcane Storm via Sandeep's Beacon ability, that the Radiance would still apply. Because technically, it is Sandeep's Attack Action that is damaging the enemy model, even if it isn't Sandeep's AP that caused it. What do yall think? James.

Yeah, I think yall are right. I mean, he could only feasibly heal himself 3 times unless I'm missing something for a max of 6 anyway (and that would be either really lucky or crazy resource dependent.) If they meant only to stop that, they could have limited his "healing" trigger to twice per activation.

Morning gang, Archie's "He Dropped His Ice Cream Again" says he can only heal up to 4 wounds per activation, but doesn't specify his activation. Does that mean that, for instance, a Nurse can't heal him completely in a turn with "Take Your Meds?" Or do we assume "per activation" implies only per Archie's activations? Thanks!

Progress I believe! The movement rule says determine how far the model will be moving. Disengaging strikes offers the possibility that the model will be moving 0" as they are resolved before the model moves. Resolving it is part of determining how far the model will be moving by definition. I think I get what you're going for. I'd state it like this: by my reasoning it is impossible to kill a model before the pre-determined end of the move, as anything before that would not be ending the move as close as possible unless something impossible to foresee happens. That in no way implies that it is impossible to kill a model with lure. A model on a Ht 15 unclimbable cliff will jump to it's death, because the base of the cliff is the closest possible point the model can reach with it's move before the move is ended. That is determinable. You can look at the board and determine that. The pre-determined end of the move is at the base of the cliff because it is the closest possible ending point to the Belle. By that same reasoning, a 6 wd, 5 wk model on a Ht 7 tower will climb down 2", fall the remaining 5" and take 5 wounds, but then move the last remaining 1" closer to the Belle because just taking a suicidal jump off would only get you to the base of the tower, and therefore climbing and falling gets you 1" closer. A 3 wd model will try to make it through hazardous terrain because it is _impossible_ to know if the damage flip will kill it and it is otherwise the shortest route that gets it closest to the Belle. If it dies before hand, you still took the shortest route to get you the closest to the Belle that was possible, because it was impossible to know a crazy flip would kill you.

First off, my apologies as I'm still not sure I follow 100%. My work can be rather mind numbing (I'm trying to do two things at once) and as is obvious from this thread to this point, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer to start with! I suspect we may be missing each other like ships in the fog here, but I'm not sure! I'm going to try and sort it out, so correct me if I'm wrong. If that were the case you wouldn't be able to announce when you intended to leave engagement range for for a disengaging strike, because it would be impossible to determine how far you are moving as that would require information that you have no way of knowing. Disengaging strikes are not a problem. Per the rules, you announce if you intend to leave the engagement range _before_ moving. The entire process of disengaging strikes is based upon the intent to move, not the movement itself and is part of the process of determining how far you will be moving. You announce that you intend to move, resolve the disengaging strikes and at that point, you either lose the AP or move to where you planned to move. As part of the process, it isn't important to know where you will actually end, only that you intended to leave the engagement range. That is your original post, I believe. To be clear, I think the death of a model does end the move. As such, it is possible for a model to die en route to something, and to consider that move ended. It's generally possible to determine the location of the end of that movement, and therefore determine the ending that gets the model as close to the belle as possible (for the sake of the original post.) In the instance of Hazardous terrain, it's impossible to tell if moving through the hazardous terrain will kill you. So you still choose the shortest route that gets you the closest to the belle, but die with a bad flip, as _knowing_ the other way would end up closer was impossible. Another poster had suggested that perhaps dying while moving means you never end your move. I argued semantically that by the letter of the rules, that would imply that Belles could never kill a model as they could never end the move if the model died. I don't accept that that is the case. It is certainly not my understanding of the rules. I think I addressed your points. I have a neurotic need to be understood and understand which makes me terrible at forums!

Technically, the rules state that you declare you wish to disengage and then disengaging strikes are taken. The movement itself has nothing to do with it. As soon as you declare you wish to disengage, the opposing player gets to make disengaging strikes.

Yes, but knowing that you WOULD die because of the hazardous terrain is impossible, and therefore moving through it is still the shortest route and closest move _possible_. This is different from the tower because you know exactly how much damage you will take falling off the building. You know, for instance, that climbing 2" and falling 5 will get you closer than simply falling directly off the top. You don't know that from flipping damage for hazardous terrain.

This one I don't follow. I'm afraid I need a little more clarification.

I completely agree, which really is the main point of continuing the conversation. This was a very situational case (that I believe through the course of the conversation has actually been solved/discredited) and the rules devs certainly can't be expected to nail down specifics on every possible scenario. However, through the conversation several helpful folks have pointed out things I missed and rules I was misinterpreting. So the conversation has been fruitful for me at least. I reckon if I can't be playing with folks, talking about playing with folks is an interesting diversion until I can be playing with folks again!

Well, I don't think you necessarily want to take that route, because if killing the model means "never ending it's move" then by the rule as written you could never kill a model with lure as it specifies the model "must end it's move." My assumption is that all the words in that sentence mean what they typically mean in standard conversation and no other layers are laid upon them. This quote from the rules seems pretty clear. "Determine how far the model will be moving, and then move the model that distance." Well, it moves from the top of the tower to the bottom and stops because the model dies. By definition of all the words there, the model only moves to the bottom of the tower. It doesn't say "if you happen to die, end your move there" because (models without special rules aside) dying ends that model's participation in the game. It is the end of it's movement, the end of it's AP, the end of being there at all!

I'm going to need some sort of citation for that then. Based on what are you "programming routes" and why? The rule says "move the target ... the target must end the move as close to this model as possible." It seems pretty clear to me that the model is going to move to the closest possible point it's movement allows. If one route causes the model to die further away than it could have reached going another way without dying, then it has failed to "end it's move as close as possible." All this programming talk seems added from somewhere, I'm just not sure where! What am I missing?

The rule as written is the model must end it's move as close to the Belle as possible. I don't know how you don't consider death the end of the move. As such, I don't understand how the Belle can choose to kill the model when a path exists that gets it closer without death.

This is actually an excellent point, which I admittedly hadn't considered. The Belle is the one who controls the movement. Given equal paths, she would certainly kill the trapper. In light of Ergonomic Cat's point about climbing and the point of surviving a fall, however, the Belle can't suicide the model, because climbing down still results in the model being closer, no? Because the rule isn't just "take the shortest route" but also "end up as close as possible." So by climbing down and still having a fraction of movement left the model gets closer than he would if he just died.

Yeah, I actually think you're exactly right. You start to get into some grey area, because movement is measured by fractions of inches, but terrain is not, right? So yes, with a move 5 on a Ht7 building, he would be able to climb down 2" (using 4 movement) drop 5 inches but survive with 1 wound left, and then stagger forward his remaining 1" of movement. Really solves the entire issue, to be honest!