Jordon

Everything has been revealed. Hopefully everyone has had the opportunity to look things over and let it set in. So how'd we do? Which of the new titles and models has you the most excited, which let you down? Which of them shakes up the game? How would you rate the new masters?

Thirty-Three seems like it would be the best OOK pick out of the bunch. It doesn't really need Tara to find success (but obviously will excel with her). 9ss OOK is a big ask however and I'd be curious what you'd be dropping in order to fit him. Metallurgist might have a place with Amalgam but I think your still getting more of what Levi needs from a Scavenger. Certainly not a bad include but I'm not sure your reaching for it outside of very specific use cases. Soul Battery is basically the outcast version of the Essence of Power. It's got a lot going on for a 4ss model but 90% is pretty niche. In fact I think this model is going to have a tough time finding a place in keyword so I can't imagine hiring it OOK. Its direct competition is the effigy, who I think is generally more useful, even within the amalgam keyword. That's not to say that I think it's bad, but it's not exactly obvious in its purpose.

I'm at a loss as how to fix gamin. Kaltgeist completely killed these guys and Raspy2 gives out shielded easier. I wouldn't try and lean into damage for these models. I feel like they should offer some kind of utility but I'm having a hard time figuring out something that would benefit both December and Academic. On the Academic front, I find there isn't enough incentive to invest in ice pillars and I find them to be the least necessary elemental in terms of summoning. On the December side, I just don't really see their role. They don't scheme, they don't hurt and they don't really bring anything of interest. Frostbite is an interesting ability but again it's just so much better on the Kaltgeist.

Hoarcats fine for Raspy2 only still doesn't really make them fine and only serves to illustrate the problem with the summon upgrade. If it's only worthwhile for 1/4 (1/3 if you con't consider it a hire for Marcus2) of the masters then it needs help. The fact that it's pretty decent for Raspy2 makes it so much harder to fix. Buff it for Marcus and Raspy1 and you might have made it too powerful with Raspy2. The best thing I could see in this example is to have specific synergies with those masters that Raspy2 can't tap into. For example, Adaptive Evolution for Marcus as a start. It's completely useless for either Raspy but it does give a direct hook for Marcus. For Raspy1, she needs to figure out what her deal is and to tap into that. Alternatively you could just make Hoarcats good for Raspy2 and not Raspy1, but then Raspy1 would need to compensate. Maybe Raspy1 has a hook for gamin that Raspy2 doesn't get. So each master is getting their own set of desirable hires unique from each other. I'd be okay with that if it were only limited to a few models. However Raspy2 sort of has a monopoly on all living minions ATM, which seems unfair for Raspy1. As for the Acolyte. It's a bit easier of a solve but still runs into the "Raspy2 makes it better" problem. It would need to have some direct synergy with Raspy1 in order to compensate for just being better with Raspy2. For me however, it still needs to answer the simple question of what its purpose is. Ranged damage dealer simply doesn't cut it for me. Silent ones can do the ranged game better, for cheaper, while safer, and also providing a TON of additional support as well. The Acolyte needs to do more than fire a mediocre gun. Analyze weakness is a nice power when it comes up but it's relatively niche. They just need to figure out a role and lean into that role better. Preferably something unique that doesn't compete with another model within keyword. Suggestion Looted Supplies? I'm imagining looted supplies with tools for the job being a very potent card draw engine. Raspy would certainly love that Maybe allowing the harpoon gun to drag in corpse markers once it kills something to allow for looted supplies (above) and a tasty snack Ice Dancers did seem to get a nice boost with the addition of the Kaldgeist and Raspy2. However I'm still not sold on their inclusion in Raspy1 and certainly not sold on their inclusion with Colette. Some suggestions: Give them an ability to turn an ice pillar into a scheme marker or vice versa. I'd much prefer this to Freeze the Corpse Allow Ice Path to use scheme markers (maybe give her a trigger to convert the marker as I mentioned above) Maybe a trigger on Ice Path to pulse out distracted (resisted of corse)

So Raspy's crew has some big issues going on. While I'm glad Raspy2 is seeing some good (well deserved) praise. I do feel like her summon is problematic. There's simply no denying that living December minions are just outright better with Raspy2. This makes balancing them way more difficult. Then there is the added headache with the fact that nearly all her models are shared with other keywords. Both the Hoarcat and Blessed are shared with Marcus (mostly Marcus1). Gamin and Golem are shared with Sandeep. Ice Dancers are shared with Colette. Acolytes, Silent Ones, Kaltgeist and Snowstorm are really the only pure December specific models. So now you have all these layers of balance to try and achieve. Make it a good hire with Raspy1 Make it a good hire with Raspy2 Make sure it's not too good with the summon upgrade Make it a good hire with shared keyword Now I will say that for the most part Wyrd has done an excellent job with the burning man release and having all these dual keyword models that feel good for both masters. So I think it's entirely possible. The problem is that Raspy1 is so far below Raspy2, that you have to start with her first. Once both masters feel equivalent, then you can look to the crew and make sure balance struck there as well. As for the tied keyword models. They should make sense in those keywords but priority should still go to December. The worst case is that it's good for Raspy and not the others. However given the this huge release, I'm confident Wyrd can make those models feel good for both keywords.

I feel like Mech is more appealing in more of a mixed amalgam horsemen list. Most of the amalgam keyword has crow triggers so Mech + Dead + Amalgam is probably a good fit. Giving Rusty three executes sounds pretty punishing. Or giving Necropunks back their mask suit for leap and onslaught. I do like the combo of feeding the dead rider corpse markers however. With Levi executing his own models for cards, by turn two you could amass a nice few bodies to turn into zombies. Those zombies give Levi fate tokens when they die. Also while I agree that innovation is a bit awkward given how each rider needs a different suit. I wouldn't discount how valuable those suits are. Giving a rider the ability to use their ultimate one turn earlier is pretty big. Not to mention how it alleviates the use of fate tokens on regular attacks. Levi himself will almost always benefit from basically any suit and each built in suit is the equivalent to two fate tokens for Levi, which is a big savings. So I feel like even if you just have Levi and one other rider benefit from built in suits, I still call that a worthwhile investment.

How would people rank each of the riders in terms of what they bring to a rider heavy Levi2 list? Dead Rider: For his ability to summon zombies and splash out injured, which has a lot of synergy with this sort of list. Pale Rider: Ranged injured + staggered is quite good. Healing is at a premium. Irreducible damage pulse is great. Hooded Rider: His free action is useful turn 1. His ultimate is pretty nasty Mech Rider: Provides an easy scheme option or corpse markers for the dead rider. Can give suits to Levi and another rider. Reactivate is mostly wasted.

Does Creeping Ice prevent a model from taking walk/charge actions?

Raspy1 is certainly in need of attention but the Kaltgeist do a lot for her. However they do just as much for Raspy2 so the issue still remains of the disparity between these two titles. Raspy2 did a pretty good job at bringing up some of the weaker models. Those models still need some love IMO, but they're certainly in better shape than they were prior to Raspy2. The problem now lies in that making models good for one and good for the other. If Acolytes, Dancers and Hoarcats see a significant boost, then they might be good with Raspy1 but might be busted with Raspy2. So I think Raspy1 can take a page from Raspy2 and provide her own unique buff so that both masters are more or less playing on equal fields. Or maybe Raspy1 could focus more on the construct side and buff the gamin/golem/Kaltgeist more directly. Maybe a nod back to M2E Raspy where she loved blasting off her own models just as much as the enemy. Maybe her winter strike caused 0 damage to gamin, allowing you to better control those blast markers. Maybe Raspy1 gets her old "perfect mirror" ability that allows her to mirror without discarding for triggers. That would make her stand out a bit more favourably from Raspy2.

Where are the built in suits for Pouncing Strike coming from? Sandeep?

Anyone with the book able to confirm if anything from Colette has changed/clarified? I'm doubtful given the time frame of the release.

Speaking to the Soul Battery. As someone who's likely hiring all four horsemen, I don't have many stones to spare. So at 4ss I feel like this models direct competition is the effigy. It's a tough toss up on who's brining more to the table. The effigy is nice because it provides a better heal (although needing 7's). This is pretty crucial when running such an elite list. Accomplice is also really nice as a way to put up your aura and chain activate into a rider. I also feel like his aura can get a lot of milage in a list with 4 riders. Getting kills is not really a problem. Positioning might be the bigger issue however. Also the effigy itself is a bit more hardy than the Soul Battery. Moving onto the Soul Battery. I feel like he's less focused but offers a better variety. While I see the effigy strictly as a support piece, the Soul Battery can actually contribute to combat (and you want it to). As far as I'm aware, this model is the only way to generate additional fate tokens outside of Levi's more convoluted process. His melee attack is not bad. Distracted can be pretty huge but it's not really reliable. Besides your almost always going to be using his ranged attack anyway as it can be used while engaged. Really you're using it for the trigger to hand out fate tokens, giving you a potential early access to some big powers. Desperation looks interesting as a nice to have. It doesn't cost you anything so there's no harm in using it. I doubt I'd be using it all that often on horsemen, but I could see it getting more use on some of the other amalgam models. Passive heal is handy in a pinch but is not something that is going to keep your models alive. Empower is pretty niche but I can see it's use for Levi himself who probably does want to be stoning for suits regularly (unfortunately you won't have many to spare). Final sacrifice is a nice clutch ability when you've run out of stones to gain two (and a fate token). If you manage to farm a couple fate tokens, healed a few points of damage, dropped a scheme marker - then kill this model to recoup half its cost, then I'm calling that a worthwhile 4ss investment. So overall I'm not sure which model I'd be bringing regularly. It's probably match up dependant. If I expect big damage crews, I'd probably lean towards the effigy. If I'm looking to get more out of the horsemen then I'm probably bringing the Soul Battery

The waifs do seem a bit left out in this list. Sure you can probably stack some injured but realistically they’re there for you to kill and grab two cards and a fate token. Not a bad trade if you ask me. I think worst case is you use them as entropy nodes. They’re basically meaningless now so you don’t need to hide them anymore. They’re just annoying enough that the opponent will likely want them dead. That’s likely 4 actions (split between each) that’s not going into the riders. I still think they have a purpose.

So this is straight up avatar Levi, correct? I haven't seen a clear shot of the picture but it looks to be the same ghosty horse and even has the sceptre. It might have even been called Malice? Either way I soooo hyped. I've been crying for the return of the all rider list since M3E began. I didn't care how good/bad it is, I'm going to play it. Thankfully this model looks great! I'm really happy Levi has condition removal. Anyone who has played a rider know how crippling stunned can be. This power alone really makes this kind of list work. Beyond that, nothing looks overly crazy or powerful with Levi himself. Which is fine considering he can run all the horsemen. I think one list I'm dying to try is a ALL rider list by hiring all 4 horsemen AND the effigy with his upgrade. Look out turn 3 it's going to be all hooves all the time!

So looking at his One With Everything ability. Does this allow models to ignore say the "blocking" trait of an ice pillar? Right now it really seems to only affect pyre markers in any significant way. I assume the demise is really only there for Banasuva to trigger. It's not terrible but the need of having a marker within an inch of an enemy and for that to be within 6" of the model with the demise sounds a bit annoying. Still, unresisted stagger can be pretty nice. Students of All is pretty nice. It replaces Shouting Orders but is almost better in some regards as it allows an elemental to concentrate and use all the various Mantra's through that academic. I think this makes using the Mantras quite a bit easier. Worst case, its an extra attack from a bit golem model, which certainly isn't bad. Spark of the Elements doesn't really seem worth a masters action and a damage on whoever's using it. Maybe if you have the tome for surge, you can at least turn that back into another action via Students of All From Heaven and Earth seems a bit situational but those triggers make it pretty interesting. Aetheric Control is neat and I can see how this could really benefit the golems (well maybe not wind so much). It also makes him an interesting choice as a second master for Raspy/Kaeris/Mei. Moment of Reflection seems like a real boss free action. Handing out up to 4 damage in healing or 4 shielded seems pretty awesome. The move is a bit more situational but could be clutch for objectives or unlocking some key models. The trigger to replace with a different gamin is interesting but I'm not sure how useful it'll be. I guess it means you don't need to hire wind game because it'll likely be better to change into one from a 4ss gamin instead. Still pretty neat. Overall I like what he's offering but it does still seem a little bit more geared towards elemental models which is a bit of a shame as OG Sandeep also seemed mostly elemental focused as well. I'm still not really seeing any incentive to hire Kudra or the mages unfortunately.

I will say right off the bat that it seems odd that the wind golem looses armor. At 10ss and only 9 wounds and Df 5 seems like this thing is going to get shredded up. Yes it can butterfly jump but I feel like that will just entice models to focus melee it. Middle of the storm is nice support piece but it's probably the weakest form of armor on any of the golem models. I don't know, it just sort of reads as the weakest of the golems unless I'm missing something.

Another question regarding the timing on Sacrifice To December. Does this allow an Acolyte to kill a living model and get a stone from it via Cryosleep? My thinking is no because you trigger kill effects before dropping the marker? A shame as that would actually be a nice boost for the Acolyte.

I will say that I do think that Ice Dancers got at least a little more appealing. With Raspy2 they can pickup corpse markers and carry them around (not a huge deal but it's something). Ice Path also now gives them shielded since its a push which is a nice bonus. However I think its the Kaltgeist themselves which provide the biggest benefit. The Ice Dancer can scoop them up since they count as ice pillars. This means you can move them 12" before activating. Not only that, but by having mobile Ice Pillars, it makes using Ice Path a lot easier as both a movement tool as well as an attack. Freeze Corpse does seem a bit redundant with Raspy2 now. Now I'm not suggesting they are "fixed" but it does at least give them a somewhat more defined purpose.

So my big concern here is by giving her options to summon living December models, they won't receive any changes that they desperately need. Acolytes, Hoarcats and Ice Dancers are in a really bad state right now. Using summoning as a way to make them more palatable just doesn't sit right. I hope its not the case and these models get the buff they deserve soon. My second gripe is that I feel like the Kaltgeist just feels like a superior ice gamin. For just one more stone you get so much more utility. The fact that they are mobile ice pillars alone basically invalidates the gamin. If you could summon gamin then I'd be more forgiving, but you cannot. Not sure if anyone else is feeling this or not? As for Raspy herself. The artwork doesn't really do much for me as I feel like she's lost lot of the Wyrd-ness or arcane feeling. She still has Ice Mirror, which I wasn't expecting. Too bad it still requires discards to actually use. Again I hope we see that change in an upcoming errata as well. Beyond that, I'm pretty happy with her new role and I like that it emphasizes different models. SnowStorm looks like an auto include which is pretty refreshing.

So how does Jack2 compare to the original? When do you see yourself reaching for one over the other?

Daw seems pretty interesting. I like the ability to drag models away via charging through them. I do wish he had Agile so he could use walk actions to move people around as well. Overall I'm glad he's steering away from staggered and more into board control. This makes the choice less obvious (but still highly recommended) when hiring in condition removal to counter him. Repressed Aggression is nice but less useful when targeting the same model. I'm thinking your going to want to try for those triggers every time if able as both seem really nice. Burst of speed getting double duty with last words is really nice. The Betrayer upgrade seems like it could be really nasty but more difficult to apply than his OG version. I could see it being somewhat mitigated by a model simple disengaging and focusing without really sacrificing much. Seems odd to me that Draw Them In is friendly only given how his upgrade works. This really seems specifically suited for Montressor as once they get stuck with staggered, they're going to have a real tough time getting away. Unquiet Soul feels like it should be a free action. Un-resisted damage is great but the heal portion of it seems pretty bad for a master action. Maybe it's worth it in a pinch. I don't know, this seems like a pretty niche ability. Cursed dreams is nice and likely going to see more use than his OG free action. Its a shame it doesn't work on himself though. As for Auguste. I wonder if his Exclusive Interview works with the This Will Fetch a High Price ability on the Soldier for Hire upgrade? The wording is a bit weird but it could be funny if it did actually work. Not sure its actually worth it however. Overall he seems decent on his own but not really something that works particularly well with Daw

I think if they had a demise that allowed them to perform an interact action, I would be satisfied. Then I wouldn't be as bothered to play them more forward as they'd likely get a chance to do what you hire them to do before their inevitable death. Alternatively giving them built in suits versus distracted models would also be a really nice boost. Oh one other thing that has always bothered me about showgirls is the Expensive Gift trigger on seduction. It really bothers me that you can't draw a card when you force them to discard. I've never had my opponent give me a soul stone ever. It's already hard enough targeting a soul stone user, but to then get this trigger AND have them choose a soul stone is just not happening. Besides Celebrity is just a better version of seduction at a slightly reduced range.

I suppose they are one of the only in keyword options for Magical Training. However, once again, I look to the Saboteur who is equally as good. You loose out on manipulative but gain disguised. It's just with the new models, these subpar models get tougher and tougher to hire. Now we have showgirls competing with Dorian. Now he's offering something different than a showgirl, but he's really offering a lot for just 2 more stones. I'm not sure what I'd change on them to make them more appealing. I'd really want them to have more of a defined role aside from arcane reservoir caddy. Or to offer more to the crew itself. Maybe using distracted in more interesting ways instead of defence or the very rare damage boost.

Hey, I'm wondering how people are finding showgirls? I myself have not really gotten them to work since the start of M3E and I've basically stopped running them entirely. My issue with them is that I just don't know what they're supposed to be doing. They're so flimsy and hit like a wet noodle and are not even all that great at scheming. At 4ss I find mannequins just bring so much more. Lure is cool and all, but it usually just ends up getting me killed. Manipulative is just not enough to keep these models from getting focused to death in a single shot. I'm not sure if it's just faction envy but I look at the Belles and Beckoners as just better versions within their respective keyword. They seem to tie into their mechanic more fluidly than Showgirls. Celebrity and DMM is nice and does make them better in interact heavy pools, but I just rarely find I need them and they don't really seem to bring anything to their own keyword. I find Saboteurs just better versions in terms of raw scheming potential. Maybe I'm just missing something but I found them much more appealing in M2E when they gave out reactivate to their keyword upon death (a good reason to hire them in theme). They could also nuke scheme markers from range which came in handy and kept them out of harms way. I feel like your "supposed" to be running them with Mannequins, who can take the hit and also heal them. However at 9ss, the due still can't compete with other 9ss options (both in and out of theme). How are other people using showgirls and achieving success?

I think it's less about maxing her out but more of a mechanic's very specific usage. Unlike expunge from M2E and immolate. Kaeris requires a very specific positioning and timing (end of turn). If you use her other core ability to move through models, you're going to accumulate a lot of burning. If you activate her too early, then you're really putting yourself at risk of bombing yourself or a friendly. Going late may not always be the smart play however. You do always have the option of dumping that damage on a flame born model but there's always that risk of it not working or not being able to reach her. Maybe that's just part of the play style of this specific Kaeris. You get a very nice unrestricted damage nuke but it requires you play her in a very specific, very predictable way. Not saying that this is bad, but I can see how it could be potentially frustrating for either player.